Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Ooh, good idea to drop the Roman numerals! As for these guys ::::, I'd like to use them too -- it looks neat. But then, immediately after that follows ': Movt#. Tempo marking.'

Oh, and I actually use this for the Title tag; I really don't care what the file's name is.

The file name determines the position of the work if you were to copy it to CD, for example, or onto your MP3 player. That's why I always start with the number; like Mozart is K 465 followed by K 466. And Beethoven is Bia(monti) 001, 002 etc. If you start with genre, for example, then you have piano quartet following piano concerto but in front of piano sonata and piano trio. Gets sort of messy. But hey, that's just me...

I simply can't wait to get my hands on a cycle and start tagging them!

Fischer is calling you...

[Opus106]

The file name determines the position of the work if you were to copy it to CD, for example, or onto your MP3 player.

For me it's track numbers: get rid of the CD order -- arrange them by title (asc.) -- then order them from 1-whatever.

That's why I always start with the number; like Mozart is K 465 followed by K 466.

That's what I plan to do initially with the Schubert sonatas set, because unlike the Gulda LvB set, the sonatas are not in order.  D numbers first, then order them as mentioned above and shift the D numbers to the end.

If you start with genre, for example, then you have piano quartet following piano concerto but in front of piano sonata and piano trio. Gets sort of messy. But hey, that's just me...

Yeah, I guess that's just you.

Fischer is calling you...

BTW, this thread is going off topic. I'll shut up now and wait for your next instalment. 0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, just 3 more years for now, and then I need to a> get some work done and b> slip in some new works for the list.

1762-64 were not huge output years. To start with, he wasn't the top dog yet, he was just the Vice-Kapellmeister. And there were things to do, like getting the orchestra whipped into shape and the instruments all updated. Plus, the Prince hadn't decide yet what the best use was for his new assistant. It wasn't until 1765 that the huge years of productivity came along.

1762
Hob 01_003 Symphony in G
Hob 01_004 Symphony in D
Hob 01_005 Symphony in A
Hob 01_009 Symphony in C
Hob 07d_03 Concerto in D for Horn & 2 Oboes
Hob 28_01 Opera "Acide"                                       First opera!

1763
Hob 01_012 Symphony in E
Hob 01_013 Symphony in D
Hob 01_036 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_040 Symphony in F
Hob 01_072 Symphony in D
Hob 02_21 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns & Strings
Hob 02_D22 Cassatio in D for 4 Horns & Strings
Hob 07a_1 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_3 Concerto in A for Violin
Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello
Hob 16_05 Sonata #8 in A for Keyboard
Hob 23a_G 09 Motet O coelitum beati
Hob 23b_03 Ave Regina
Hob 24a_02 Cantata in G Destatevi, o miei fidi

1764
Hob 01_002 Symphony in C
Hob 01_014 Symphony in A
Hob 01_015 Symphony in D
Hob 01_021 Symphony in A
Hob 01_022 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_023 Symphony in G
Hob 01_024 Symphony in D
Hob 14_04 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
Hob 24a_03 Cantata in C Al Tuo arrivo felice
Hob 24a_04 Cantata in A Qual dubbio ormai

As you will see, this pales in comparison to the next several years. I am going to have to do 1765-72 one year at a time!

[Franco]

This is all new to me - I've never studied the Hob. numbeirng system, but it seems very deficient as a chronological system. 

Am I correct in thinking that if you wanted to hear the symphonies in the order they were composed, you'd have to create your own list based on Hob 1 - and then numbering according to date of composition?

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

(I guess I could Wiki this ...)

[Gurn Blanston]

This is all new to me - I've never studied the Hob. numbeirng system, but it seems very deficient as a chronological system. 

Am I correct in thinking that if you wanted to hear the symphonies in the order they were composed, you'd have to create your own list based on Hob 1 - and then numbering according to date of composition?

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

(I guess I could Wiki this ...)

Hoboken did the best he could with what was known in his time. Unfortunately, that was little or nothing.   So really, his numbers are very unreliable. And as far as chronology goes, I don't think that was a factor for him. It's possible (my speculation) that he was going by style for dating purposes, and we all know how dangerous that can be.

The numbering of the symphonies comes from a list compiled back in the early 20th century (although I disremember the compiler's name), and Hoboken simply adopted it in its entirety. The later ones, after <>75 are pretty much correct. But the piano trios (Group 15 (XV)) are all over the map! Landon was the first to bring order from chaos, but Hoboken was already widely disseminated by then so it was never displaced. More's the pity. So we just work with what we have to work with and carry on.

[Gurn Blanston]

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

Well, the essence of it is that he divide the works according to its genre and/or instrumentation.

So this is what we end up with:

Symphonies  I  1-108
Overtures       Ia    1-16
Divertimenti in 4 and more Parts    II 1-47
String Quartets    III 1-83b
Divertimenti in 3 Parts    IV 1-11
String Trios    V 1-21
Various Duos    VI 1-6
Concerti for Various Instruments    VII
Marches    VIII 1-7
Dances    IX 1-29
Various Works for Baryton    X 1-12
Trios for Baryton, Violin or Viola, Cello    XI 1-126
Duos with Baryton    XII 1-25
Divertimenti with Piano    XIV 1-13
Trios with Piano, Violin or Flute, Cello    XV 1-40
Piano Sonatas    XVI 1-52
Piano Pieces    XVII 1-12
Piano 4 Hands    XVIIa 1-2
Piano Concerti    XVIII 1-11
Pieces for Mechanical Clock (Flötenuhr)    XIX 1-32
Instrumental Works about The Seven Last Words    XX
Oratorios    XXI 1-3
Masses    XXII 1-14
Other Sacred Works    XXIII
Cantatas and Arias with Orchestra    XXIV
2, 3, and 4 Part Songs    XXV
Songs and Cantatas with Piano    XXVI
Canons    XXVII Sacred 1-10 Secular 1-47
Operas    XXVIII 1-13

There more little groups that fall between the gaps too. But this is the basic layout.

[Franco]

Many thanks Gurn - this is very helpful.

[Gurn Blanston]

Just have time for one more year. It is the first of the really big years, although not the biggest year in terms of production.

1765
Hob 01_017 Symphony in F
Hob 01_028 Symphony in A
Hob 01_029 Symphony in E
Hob 01_030 Symphony in C
Hob 01_031 Symphony in D
Hob 01_034 Symphony in d

Hob 02_07 Divertimento in C for Wind Sextet
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_17 Cassatio a 9 in C
Hob 02_23 Divertimento in F for Wind Sextet

Hob 05_07 Trio in A for Strings
Hob 05_11 Trio in Eb for Strings
Hob 05_21 Trio in D for Strings

Hob 11_001 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1The first of the baryton trios. It took 1.5 years to write Book 1
Hob 11_002 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_003 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_004 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_005 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_006 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_007 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_008 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_009 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_010 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_011 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_012 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone

Hob 14_05 Sonata #28 in D for Keyboard
Hob 14_12 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_13 Divertimento in G for Keyboard
Hob 14_C2 Divertimento in C for Keyboard

Hob 16_44 Sonata #32 in g for Keyboard     A nice period for keyboard works
Hob 16_45 Sonata #29 in Eb for Keyboard
Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard

Hob 17_01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard

Hob 23c_1 Te Deum in C

[SonicMan46]

Gurn - quite a productive year for Papa Joe! Below a quote describing Haydn's marriage - now we know that both of them 'played around', Joe probably more than his wife (is there a book on this topic?  ).

But, in that kind of marriage, would one want to 'stay at the office' doing whatever (of course, in Haydn's case writing music) rather than retire to his 'home' to be w/ his wife?  Thus, was his amazingly large output of music related to his job, his own ambitions, or a reason to avoid being around his wife?  This thought has crossed my mind for a number of years now - likely a combination, but of interest - Dave 

In 1760, Haydn married Maria Anna Aloysia Apollonia Keller.  Interestingly, Haydn had originally preferred Maria's sister Josepha, but when Josepha entered a convent, Haydn's romantic hopes were put to rest.  All indications are that Haydn's marriage to Maria was an unhappy one.  There were no children and Maria had little interest in Haydn's talents.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - quite a productive year for Papa Joe! Below a quote describing Haydn's marriage - now we know that both of them 'played around', Joe probably more than his wife (is there a book on this topic?  ).

But, in that kind of marriage, would one want to 'stay at the office' doing whatever (of course, in Haydn's case writing music) rather than retire to his 'home' to be w/ his wife?  Thus, was his amazingly large output of music related to his job, his own ambitions, or a reason to avoid being around his wife?  This thought has crossed my mind for a number of years now - likely a combination, but of interest - Dave 

Yes, it certainly was. Pales in comparison to 1766 though.   In fact, I don't think I have all the works from 1766 and it's still huge.

One would have to consider that the amount of work that he took on had to affect his marriage to some extent. I haven't read any book that addresses the marriage issue more than in passing though. I do know that he called her The Infernal Beast in his letters to others, so I don't see a lot of affection there.    And for her part, she simply didn't like music, not necessarily his music, and so was oblivious to his talent beyond what material advantage she could gain from it. Late in life he sort of went over the top in his various schemes to make her miserable; for example, she had greatly admired a house (I believe it is the one that he retired to in Gumpendorf), so he bought it and moved into it, but never allowed her to set foot in it. Probably a bit on the petty side, but then, there is no telling how miserable she made him. It was more than a little, I think.



----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 037 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Presto

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, moving along to 1766, it is the first full year of being Top Dog, Big Cheese, Head Honcho... Kapellmeister!

And clearly the demands were higher too, as can be seen from this list. There is still stuff that I know to be missing from my collection from this year, like the (fragmentary) opera "La Cantarina" ("The Diva") for example. And a few more string trios. But this is still a pretty imposing list, IMO:

1766
Hob 01_010 Symphony in D
Hob 01_016 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_018 Symphony in G
Hob 01_019 Symphony in D
Hob 01_020 Symphony in C
Hob 01_025 Symphony in C

Hob 02_03 Divertimento in G for Wind Sextet

Hob 05_16 Trio in C for Strings
Hob 05_17 Trio in Eb for Strings
Hob 05_20 Trio in G for Strings

Hob 09_04 Six Minuetti di Ballo

Hob 10_11 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 11_013 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_016 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_017 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_018 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_019 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_020 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_021 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_023 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_024 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 11_025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_026 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_027 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_028 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_029 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_030 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2

Hob 12_01 Duet in A for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_04 Duet in G for 2 Barytons

Hob 15_38 Trio in Bb for Fortepiano & Strings

Hob 16_06 Sonata #13 in G for Keyboard
Hob 16_07 Sonata #2 in D for Keyboard
Hob 16_08 Sonata #1 in G for Keyboard
Hob 16_09 Sonata #3 in F for Keyboard
Hob 16_12 Sonata #12 in A for Keyboard
Hob 16_43 Sonata #35 in Ab for Keyboard
Hob 16_47 Sonata #19 in e for Keyboard
Hob 16_G1 Sonata #4 in G for Keyboard

Hob 17_D1 Sonata #7 in D for Keyboard

Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard

Hob 22_04 Missa in honorem BVM
Hob 22_05 'Missa Cellensis'

Overall, a very good year. And I would point out that the so-called "Stürm und Dräng" started out, not with the symphonies that we all know so well, but with some of these keyboard sonatas. I would recommend that you pull out your set, whoever it may be by, and get away from the late sonatas for a bit, and go back past the galant works of the mid 1770's, and give these a serious listen. The vile canard about Haydn's early works will soon be forgotten.

[Florestan]

would recommend that you pull out your set, whoever it may be by

BTW, any comments on this set?

[Gurn Blanston]

BTW, any comments on this set?

No, I don't have it. The only set I have on modern piano is McCabe. However, I encourage people to concentrate more on the music than the performer and give a listen to some of the less well-known items too. I think that if people prefer modern piano to (well, it would be harpsichord in the case of 1766) fortepiano, then it would be a distraction for them to get used to the sound instead of concentrating on the music. Someone told me once that Buchbinder could really play the piano well.

[SonicMan46]

BTW, any comments on this set?

 

Hi Andrei - I own that set in different packaging (picture added above, right) - I've not listened to the box in a while but enjoyed (and have kept in my collection - not many other options on a modern piano!) - the performances are quite good the sound less (from the 1970s IIRC) - however, at a good price, a worthy consideration.

I also have the same works w/ Brautigam & Schornsheim on period instruments - of the 3 sets of these works that I own, the period instruments seem to be the most appropriate for Haydn's keyboard works of the 18th century, and of those two boxes that I own, I think that Brautigam is my favorite choice at the moment; just love his way w/ that 'wooden frame' piano! 

Now having made the statements above, I just acquired the M-A Hamelin recordings of the 'selected' Haydn recordings shown below on a modern piano; Hamelin's touch on the instrument is quite different from the many later 19th century of his recordings (e.g. Alkan & the Hyperion Piano Concerto series) - he plays w/ a more delicate deft touch that makes his 'modern' piano sound more like fortepiano performances - these CDs have received 'mixed' reviews and I need a few more listenings; but just another consideration - Dave 

 

 

[Florestan]

Thank you, gentlemen!

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Andrei - I own that set in different packaging (picture added above, right) - I've not listened to the box in a while but enjoyed (and have kept in my collection - not many other options on a modern piano!) - the performances are quite good the sound less (from the 1970s IIRC) - however, at a good price, a worthy consideration.

I also have the same works w/ Brautigam & Schornsheim on period instruments - of the 3 sets of these works that I own, the period instruments seem to be the most appropriate for Haydn's keyboard works of the 18th century, and of those two boxes that I own, I think that Brautigam is my favorite choice at the moment; just love his way w/ that 'wooden frame' piano! 

Now having made the statements above, I just acquired the M-A Hamelin recordings of the 'selected' Haydn recordings shown below on a modern piano; Hamelin's touch on the instrument is quite different from the many later 19th century of his recordings (e.g. Alkan & the Hyperion Piano Concerto series) - he plays w/ a more delicate deft touch that makes his 'modern' piano sound more like fortepiano performances - these CDs have received 'mixed' reviews and I need a few more listenings; but just another consideration - Dave 

Dave,
You've really expanded! Well, I have (and recommend) the Schornsheim, and ditto the van Oort set from Brilliant. I have all the Brautigam from after 1780, and mainly I replaced the late works with his versions because they just have more joie de vivre to them. If you have no objections to use of a hammerklavier throughout the set (and why should you? I'm the one who's OC about that stuff. ), then that's the investment to make. I am happy to use Schornsheim in the earlier works though, I think she really shines on harpsichord.

As much as I've listened to of the Oort set so far has been very rewarding. Bart ages well.

[Antoine Marchand]

... and ditto the van Oort set from Brilliant.

As much as I've listened to of the Oort set so far has been very rewarding. Bart ages well.

Hi, Gurn. Are you talking about that 5-CD set with variations, fantasies, dances and the Seven Last Words?

[Opus106]

And if anyone is interested, Amazon.com is selling the MP3 of Schornscheim set -- all 14-CDs-worth -- for $17.98.*



*As of 15:15 UTC, 9 March, 2010.

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi, Gurn. Are you talking about that 5-CD set with variations, fantasies, dances and the Seven Last Words?

Well, that and the sonata set that he contributed to. The variations, fantasies etc. came with the Big Box, and so did the sonatas. I am nobly moving forward with the whole box, although it is a challenge!

[Franco]

And if anyone is interested, Amazon.com is selling the MP3 of Schornscheim set -- all 14-CDs-worth -- for $17.98.*



*As of 15:15 UTC, 9 March, 2010.

I thought I could beat that deal when I saw this set Haydn: Piano Sonatas Complete [Box set]
Bart van Oort in a MP3 download for $2.79 - but when I checked, I found this item was what was being offered:

The Piano
by Bart (total sound da freek remix)