Haydn's Haus

[DavidW]

Well okay we're talking about Austrio-Germanic, within that context the 440 pitch is too high.  If we're talking Vivaldi that is a different story.  We know that Haydn is the conversation, so the really different pitches used in the southern parts of the continent are not applicable here.

[Herman]

Yes, but you have securely noticed that the convention, the tradition, the standard –name it as you want- accepted today for classical labels is only to list the instruments that way when they are period instruments. A Testore from 1750 is not more a real Testore when has been modernized and it's totally inaccurate to list all the instruments of a string quartet as if they were period instruments, when they are modern or modernized instruments, especially when it's the only information included about the instruments in an extense booklet with detailed historical considerations. It's a source of confusion like the quote of the reviewer of Fanfare demonstrates.

No, I have not noticed that, and I think the reason why is because it isn't so.

Perhaps this is how some über-HIP violinists and their instrument dealers wish to see it, but in spite of this solo violinists with great 18th C instruments will continue to mention the pedigree of their instruments, and they have a perfect right to do so.

Obviously a lot of HIP historical instruments have been restored, too, in many cases back from some state of technical modernity. The number of hale 18th century violins is not unlimited.

[snyprrr]

I started an 'A=440???" Thread.

Let's talk Op.77.

[jlaurson]

Yes, but you have securely noticed that the convention, the tradition, the standard –name it as you want- accepted today for classical labels is only to list the instruments that way when they are period instruments...

...I agree that that's not the new convention. If the BOWS are listed by maker and year, then we are talking a reasonable suspicion of HIP. 

[Antoine Marchand]

...I agree that that's not the new convention. If the BOWS are listed by maker and year, then we are talking a reasonable suspicion of HIP. 

Well, Jens, I suppose you have a good amount of discs performed by HIP ensembles.

How many of them do not indicate the instruments used in the recording?

I have hundreds of discs by HIP ensembles and soloists playing on period instruments and the instruments are always indicated in the way that they are in the booklet of the Buchbergers. The percentage of booklets of HIP ensembles with no information about the instruments is close to zero.

The information about the bows, strings, etc. is not yet very usual even respect of credited HIP ensembles and soloists, although many small labels include extremely accurate information in specific aspects of the historical instruments or copies used; that's the case, for instance, of Amon Ra, Athene, Musica Omnia, Ambroisie and many others.

On the other hand, how many ensembles playing on modern or modernized instruments list their instruments in the way of the Buchbergers? Again, in my experience, the percentage is extremely low.

How many recordings of the great violinists of the fifties o sixties indicated the origin and year of the instruments? How many modern violinists playing on modern or modernized instruments indicate their instruments with some detail? Not many of them, I think.

How many discs of modern orchestras indicate the origin and date of their instruments? Because even in the case of orchestral and symphonic music the recordings by HIP groups usually include details not only about the instruments of the soloist, but frequently the instruments of the orchestral group.

In short, I am talking about an empirical observation, not of a musical philosophy according to which the instruments are finally irrelevant (especially in favour of modern instruments, of course).

[Herman]

In short, I am talking about an empirical observation, not of a musical philosophy according to which the instruments are finally irrelevant (especially in favour of modern instruments, of course).

It is true that HIP ensembles are a little bit more overtly fetishistic about the pedigree of their instruments. However, you weren't just making an empirical comment about what is sometimes printed in cd booklets:

A Testore from 1750 is not more a real Testore when has been modernized and it's totally inaccurate to list all the instruments of a string quartet as if they were period instruments, when they are modern or modernized instruments

[Daverz]

So clear that the reviewer of Fanfare cited by you, stated in several occasions that the Buchbergers played on period instruments:

From the same review I quoted earlier:

"Modern instruments! And I have been telling you all along that these were period instruments played at modern pitch. Mea culpa. This is indicative of another point I have been making about performances of music by Haydn and by other composers: because so many artists have been adapting to period practices, regardless of the instruments they play, the distance between the two worlds has shrunk."

(Sorry I'm a bit tardy with this.)

[Mandryka]

Can someone recommend a recording of Symphony 68?

Very good adagio!

[jlaurson]

Can someone recommend a recording of Symphony 68?

Very good adagio!

What styles are you into?

It's not that easy to get just 68... but there are options, all of which have merits:

Hogwood is OOP, me thinks. Fischer. Harnoncourt.

[Antoine Marchand]

Tempting, very tempting. But can I justify a third box of Londons within the space of a couple of months? Only if Mrs. Rock doesn't find out 

Sarge

But perhaps another set of Paris would be completely justified, isn't it? I mean if you don't have this wonderful set:



P.S.: It's clear you have that set.

HAYDN   SYMPHONY #82 C MAJOR "L'OURS" (BEAR)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #83 G MINOR "LA POULE" (HEN)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #84 E FLAT   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #85 B FLAT "LA REINE DE FRANCE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #86 D MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #87 A MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN

[Scarpia]

But perhaps another set of Paris would be completely justified, isn't it? I mean if you don't have this wonderful set:

Finally something we can agree on.   

[Antoine Marchand]

Finally something we can agree on.   

Then I probably need to listen to those discs again!   

[Mandryka]

What  is Haydn's best tragic music?

I have been playing Piano Sonata No. 33 Hob XVI/20, a lot recently, and I'm struck by its epic tragic quality. 

I can think of some other quite sad movements in Haydn. Symphony 44's adagio as Scherchen plays it; the fantasia from the quartet Op 76/6 (as everyone plays it); the largo from the Piano sonata 50 Hob XVI/37. But nothing quite as sustained and "hard" , "tough" as Piano sonata 33.

Anyway – any other tragic Haydn that you like?

[Antoine Marchand]

Do you know the Variations in F minor, Hob.XVII:6, also known as Sonata un piccolo divertimento? Not "tragic" exactly, but sadly resigned (as it was defined by a friend of mine some time ago). Here it is played on an English square piano by the excellent -and almost unknown- Joanna Leach:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nytwjmnwygk

[Mandryka]

Do you know the Variations in F minor, Hob.XVII:6, also known as Sonata un piccolo divertimento? Not "tragic" exactly, but sadly resigned (as it was defined by a friend of mine some time ago). Here it is played on an English square piano by the excellent -and almost unknown- Joanna Leach:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nytwjmnwygk

That's nice performance -- thank you. And it's the only one I have on an old instrument.

Not everyone plays it "sadly resigned". Pletnev speeds it up and turns it into something far from melancholy. I like it like that actually.

[Antoine Marchand]

... it's the one one I have on an old instrument.

Complete recording of Haydn's piano sonatas on a sampled Walther fortepiano

[Florestan]

Not really tragic all along, but certainly very drammatic, with some quite desolate moments: Symphony no. 95 in C minor.

[Leon]

Probably not news around these parts, but for an ongoing series of the Haydn Piano Trios, one can hardly do better than the recordings by Trio 1790.

This group also is offering trios by other classical era composers that one doesn't often find, e.g., I recently acquired a set of five trios by Ladislav Dussek that is excellent.

[DavidW]

Probably not news around these parts, but for an ongoing series of the Haydn Piano Trios, one can hardly do better than the recordings by Trio 1790.

Well I don't know Van Swieten Trio is just as good and has the benefit of having the entire set on my shelf!   Plus if I had to choose today, I know gmgers don't like to talk about this, but one set is bargain priced the other is full price for the same works, the same interpretation on PI, the same sound quality.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well I don't know Van Swieten Trio is just as good and has the benefit of having the entire set on my shelf!   Plus if I had to choose today, I know gmgers don't like to talk about this, but one set is bargain priced the other is full price for the same works, the same interpretation on PI, the same sound quality.

I have both sets; no choices need be made.   They are both very good. The Trio 1790 set uses harpsichord for the keyboard part when it is appropriate while the van Sweiten use fortepiano throughout. So if you don't like harpsichord the choice becomes easier. While if you don't like fortepiano, there's no hope for you...