Haydn's Haus

[Herman]

I would agree with David, in that it's a rather simple motiv, there are probably tons of composers we do not know of (well, maybe Gurb would) who "use" little percussive motivs like this. It's useful to remember who came up with this "Haydn quotes Beethoven" notion. The less you know, the more likely it is you see all kinds of correspondences between disparate works of art. A student who hardly ever reads fiction will see gigantic similarities between the two books he's assigned to read.

Also, it's a variation on the regressive idea that all music leads to Beethoven, whereas by now we know that in many ways Haydn was the greater composer.

[snyprrr]

It's useful to remember who came up with this "Haydn quotes Beethoven" notion.

Who?,.. Meeeee???

What I MEANT to say was that that IS the 'little motif',... it IS the 'little motif',... soooo, how is it such a 'conspiracy theory' that LvB heard this motif, it got stuck in his head like a bad TV commercial, and, poof!, out it comes in the Fifth. I DIDN'T say 'H quotes B',... I meant to say 'LvB "pre-sighting"',... and, it IS,... yea, no,... as far as I'm concerned, this IS the little motif, this IS where it originated,... and I'll even ASSUME that LvB KNEW (or, it was quickly pointed out to him) where he got the idea for the motif. I gotta believe that smart people back then picked up on this.

Also, the 'other' 'LvB Moment', 54/2, the trio of the Scherzo, can be found in LvB's Op.18/6, I believe,... it's that 'Melancolia' theme, is it not? (or, similar?) I also found this theme in an MJ Kraus SQ.

I thought we had already settled this Op.50/4 thing when I first got that Nomos set in 2009?

[Gurn Blanston]

I've kind of missed this thread. Anyone been listening to any new recordings lately? 



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Now playing:
Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra / Loris Tjeknavorian - Khachaturian Suite from 'Spartacus' pt 2 - Scene and Dance with Crotalums

[Mandryka]

I've kind of missed this thread. Anyone been listening to any new recordings lately? 



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Now playing:
Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra / Loris Tjeknavorian - Khachaturian Suite from 'Spartacus' pt 2 - Scene and Dance with Crotalums

This fun lively performace of the surprise symphony on spotify, but ultimately a bit to elegant and polished   for my tastes in Haydn



and a wonderful 48 from Scherchen which I'd never heard before -- it's not on DG biut in the set of Ultraphon recordings publisged by Tahra



I also dug out the 91 from Jacobs a few weeks ago -- this is one of my favourite Haydn symphony records, because if the comedic style

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qMID%2Bd4FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

ANd finally I listened to Klemperer's 102 last month and was gobsmacked by how wonderful it is. Noble. I listened to Scherchen and Orpheus too in 102 and thought Klemperer was by far  the most successful.

[Gurn Blanston]

This fun lively performace of the surprise symphony on spotify, but ultimately a bit to elegant and polished   for my tastes in Haydn

Pity the picture can't be seen.   Is it the one by Minkowski et al?  That is one of the more amusing versions to come along in a while.

and a wonderful 48 from Scherchen which I'd never heard before -- it's not on DG but in the set of Ultraphon recordings published by Tahra 

I've never heard Scherchen doing Haydn, but from what I know about his style, my guess would be that he sounds very progressive and modern, even today. I really like that symphony in any case, it is a perfect example of the "Viennese C major", where typcally Viennese composers used C major for big works, either majestic or simply grand. Another example is Mozart's use of it in the "Jupiter Symphony".

I also dug out the 91 from Jacobs a few weeks ago -- this is one of my favourite Haydn symphony records, because if the comedic style

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qMID%2Bd4FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Also one of mine. A great 91 and an equally good 92, another of my favorites. And to think I bought that disk originally for the very rare recording of the Scena di Berenice! Win-win-win for me!

And finally I listened to Klemperer's 102 last month and was gobsmacked by how wonderful it is. Noble. I listened to Scherchen and Orpheus too in 102 and thought Klemperer was by far  the most successful.

Well, despite that I am no fan of older performance styles, I have to say that Klemp's style would suit itself well to #102. And maybe 104 too. But my taste runs towards the smaller ensembles with a light footprint, as it were. Hard to beat La Petite Bande in those works. But there you are, that's why there are so many recordings; ultimately we will each be able to have our own favorite.




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Now playing:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam - Hob 18:11  Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Vivace

[Mandryka]

No not Minkowski. Gaia Scienza play  a reduction of the surprise symphony for piano quartet made by someone called Lachnith in 1793

I think you're missing something interesting in the reception history of these symphonies if you don't know Scherchen's Haydn. Klemperer's 102 is lithe and transparent.  All these things are spotifyable I think. There are lots of good 94s (Have you heard Harnoncourt's one with CMW on DVD/ Or Rosbaud's). Good 91s are a bit harder to find 

I like those bufffo-style  symphonies. 80 is another favourite of mine. Have you heard this one from Nicholas Kraemer and the BBC Philharmonic?

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/mpHq3wJhlukPcuPW-XENNXA/140.jpg

[karlhenning]

Enjoying the Van Swieten Trio set of the, well, piano trios . . . it's all delightfully wrought music, but . . . by and large, it's sounding like duo music, the cello and piano essentially doing a quasi-continuo act.

Still, I'm just on disc 2 yet, so . . . we shall see.

[Gurn Blanston]

Enjoying the Van Swieten Trio set of the, well, piano trios . . . it's all delightfully wrought music, but . . . by and large, it's sounding like duo music, the cello and piano essentially doing a quasi-continuo act.

Still, I'm just on disc 2 yet, so . . . we shall see.

Can't remember if that set is chronological or not, Karl, but if so, that would be typical. He gets less so as time goes on. There is a long-standing canard that his strings double the hands of the piano note for note, but an analysis of his trios compared to Mozart's or even Beethoven's shows that to be mathematically untrue. I was pleased to read that.   The trios are among my very favorite of his works.



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Now playing:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 2nd mvmt - Largo

[DavidW]

The trios are among my very favorite of his works.

I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn!

[DavidW]

I should say before I piss anyone off that I don't literally mean suckage, Haydn is my favorite composer and even those red tier works I enjoy listening to.

[kishnevi]

I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn!

Okay, I'll bite.  I'll divide it into three groups:  Humongous, Huge and Ho hum Hadyn.
Humongous
1. String Quartets
2. Oratorios (Creation, Seasons)
3. Piano Trios
4. Later Symphonies
Huge:
5. Concertos
6.  Solo Piano Works
7. Middle Period Symphonies
Ho hum
Everything else

I would have to scatter the masses among all three categories, although the division would not fit comfortably into a chronological sequence.

Ho Hum isn't really negative:  most composers would give their writing arm for the sake of composing something as good as most of Papa's "ho hum" works.  They're just ho hum compared to the rest of his output.

[Leon]

I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn!

I find that I listen, almost exclusively, to the string quartets, symphonies and piano trios.  So those are my preferred works. 

I don't know the operas or masses; the Baryton trios and songs are in my collection, but don't get played nearly as much as the three I mentioned.  The keyboard sonatas don't get played much either since I find these the least impressive group of works by Haydn.   If I want solo piano it will be Beethoven or Mozart or Schubert before Haydn.  Having said that I still have three complete sets and several other incomplete recordings - I do listen to them, just not as much as the other works.  I hardly ever listen to the keyboard concertos, actually, not the other concertos either.

Still, Haydn probably claims the majority of my classical listening time.

[karlhenning]

Can't remember if that set is chronological or not, Karl, but if so, that would be typical. He gets less so as time goes on. There is a long-standing canard that his strings double the hands of the piano note for note, but an analysis of his trios compared to Mozart's or even Beethoven's shows that to be mathematically untrue. I was pleased to read that.   The trios are among my very favorite of his works.

Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

But I was sure, too, of what you've mentioned: that Papa's use of the medium evolved as his craft waxed. Gotta load these puppies onto the Archos . . . .

[karlhenning]

You rate the Masses so high, Davey? I visited them on a time, but they dinna seem to invite me back . . . .

[DavidW]

You rate the Masses so high, Davey? I visited them on a time, but they dinna seem to invite me back . . . .

I do rate them that highly, but his oratorios are absolute zenith.  In fact I would say that the Creation and the Seasons are the finest classical era works ever written.  They are for classicism what Bach's Mass in B Minor is for the baroque era. 0:)

Jeff your list is a good un... too bad you have mixed feelings about the masses though.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

But I was sure, too, of what you've mentioned: that Papa's use of the medium evolved as his craft waxed. Gotta load these puppies onto the Archos . . . .

Actually, I have read quotes from cellists to the effect of enjoying Haydn's trios more than Mozart's, for example. Just when you think it is nothing but a figured continuo there will be a neat little obliggato lick that makes it worthwhile.

Yes, well he wrote his first ones in 1757, and his last in 1795, so there was plenty of room for growth in there.



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Now playing:
London SO \ Haitink - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Scherzo: Molto vivace

[Opus106]

Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the twentieth-century performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

Edited.

[DavidW]

I think the cellist should feel privileged, I don't think they even had much of a role in chamber music before Haydn.  Though I think the real breakout works for them might be Beethoven's cello sonatas.  I'm sure the classical era experts will correct me though.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think the cellist should feel privileged, I don't think they even had much of a role in chamber music before Haydn.  Though I think the real breakout works for them might be Beethoven's cello sonatas.  I'm sure the classical era experts will correct me though.

Boccherini. Still the Mountain for the cellist.   Beethoven was good to cellists too. Haydn brought them out of the dark of continuo though.



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Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 G1 Sonata #4 in G for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

[karlhenning]

Technically you must be right. The chamber still feels quite dim at the moment, though : )