Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

I'd replace Deistically with Theistically - but you know I'm not the person to insist upon terminology... 

Nor am I one to inject anything controversial into a post...

You're right, of course...

[Antoine Marchand]

There is a legend in respect to that. Haydn is asked why his religious music is joyous and cheerful instead of being solemn and serious. His reply: "Because whenever I think about God I become cheerful and joyous!". Se non e vero e ben trovato. 

Florestanio!
Yes, Haydn was certainly a Deistically-oriented sort of a person. Note that he completed a great number of his manuscripts with the phrase 'Finis, Laus Deo'. I always took it to be a sigh of relief, but there are other possibilities, I suppose...

Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music. 

[Florestan]

Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music. 

I have my own theory about the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism / Calvinism / Protestantism (which goes much further than music ) and I'm going to express it in a future post. Stay tuned. 

[Antoine Marchand]

I have my own theory about the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism / Calvinism / Protestantism (which goes much further than music ) and I'm going to express it in a future post. Stay tuned. 

I will wait reading this book:

[Leo K.]

Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music. 

This is a favorite subject of mine too, and the character of Protestant vs. Catholic music is very apparent and interesting! (I'm Catholic too)

[Antoine Marchand]

This is a favorite subject of mine too, and the character of Protestant vs. Catholic music is very apparent and interesting! (I'm Catholic too)

Another Papist!!! 

Anyway, in terms of quality we don't have anything to do against the Protestant music.

Bach alone is enough to compete with all Catholic composers of religious music.

[Gurn Blanston]

Another Papist!!! 

Anyway, in terms of quality we don't have anything to do against the Protestant music.

Bach alone is enough to compete with all Catholic composers of religious music.

Sez you.

[SonicMan46]

Sez you.

Gurn - now, isn't there a rule about interjecting religion into our erudite threads? 

For me, brought up Catholic & married a Jewish girl - we now attend a liberal Unitarian Fellowship - has not influenced my classical music enjoyments - Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - now, isn't there a rule about interjecting religion into our erudite threads? 

For me, brought up Catholic & married a Jewish girl - we now attend a liberal Unitarian Fellowship - has not influenced my classical music enjoyments - Dave

Yea verily there is, Dave, and at midnight behold, the Angel Que shall rise up and pluck the offending posts and cast them into the fiery pit of eternal damnation. Amen!   

Well, that and Bach being in any way superior to Haydn, when we are obviously in Haydn's own Haus. Oh, the humanity!   0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

Spinning Symphonies 76-78.....Fischer.

Well, Bill... ?

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, that and Bach being in any way superior to Haydn, when we are obviously in Haydn's own Haus. Oh, the humanity!   0:)

Well, Haydn is the only composer that I love so much as Bach, but obviously there is not comparison between them as composers of religious music. For J.S. Bach writing "well-regulated music" for the Lutheran liturgy was a life goal and he composed between three and five complete cycles of cantatas for each Sunday of the whole liturgical year. Additionally, he composed passions, masses, magnificats and so, also with liturgical purposes. On the other hand, Haydn just composed a handful of (lovely) masses and other minor pieces, many of them early works.     

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, Haydn is the only composer that I love so much as Bach, but obviously there is not comparison between them as composers of religious music. For J.S. Bach writing "well-regulated music" for the Lutheran liturgy was a life goal and he composed between three and five complete cycles of cantatas for each Sunday of the whole liturgical year. Additionally, he composed passions, masses, magnificats and so, also with liturgical purposes. On the other hand, Haydn just composed a handful of (lovely) masses and other minor pieces, many of them early works.     

Yes, I was going solely by listen-ability...   0:) 

Well, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who....

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who....

c'mon, Gurn... I was not expecting a white flag so quickly. 

[Gurn Blanston]

c'mon, Gurn... I was not expecting a white flag so quickly. 

Nah, I was merely tweaking you anyway, since I don't really have an opinion in that category. I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music, and since I am not among those who are overwhelmed by Bach's other music, I could hardly admit to preferring his sacred music over that of my own personal musical deity. I honestly do think that it is an interesting topic for many members though, and I would encourage you to start up a thread on it. Thousands don't come here, they being repelled by Papa, who would love to discuss sacred music by denomination. Just a thought....

[Antoine Marchand]

Nah, I was merely tweaking you anyway, since I don't really have an opinion in that category. I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music, and since I am not among those who are overwhelmed by Bach's other music, I could hardly admit to preferring his sacred music over that of my own personal musical deity. I honestly do think that it is an interesting topic for many members though, and I would encourage you to start up a thread on it. Thousands don't come here, they being repelled by Papa, who would love to discuss sacred music by denomination. Just a thought....

OMG, the idea of a new thread, again. 

No, I'm not really interested in beginning a thread about this topic, I'm just interested in this particular issue: how is possible to be, for instance, "historically informed" about Haydn's sacred music if consciously it is decided to ignore any information about his ideas on religion. He was a devout Catholic, therefore his masses and other sacred works just can be properly understood in the context of his religion and its rites. I'm not Lutheran, but I understand that I can't try to understand Bach from a Catholic perspective and I accept without any problem even his invectives against the Pope...

All great composers are usually a true forrest of symbols and the religion (when they were men of religious faith, as Bach and Haydn) is not the last source to go to decipher their symbols.

If the interpreter is not interested in religion even culturally or from an intellectual point of view, it's another thing: a legitimate decision as a free man, but a limitation in order to understand the sacred music as an object of serious study.   

P.S.: When I did read "I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music", I couldn't avoid to recall the usual arguments of the anti-HIP advocates; the music as "absolute music", not related (relative music as opposed to absolute music?) to specific instruments, performing ideas, religious ideas, social ideas and so.

[Bogey]

So, Haydn was a Notre Dame football fan?    Though being a practicing Catholic as well, I am with Gurn a bit in that sacred music is sacred music and I have never broken it into denominational categories.  I always draw out Bach's Passions around Lent/Easter season....just works for me.  However, for the most part, I never need a seasonal excuse to break out sacred music.  Like Handel's Messiah....it works for me year round.

Tonight, some favorites of many here:

Baryton Trios 1-7 (No HOB numbers....they did not add them later?)-Esterhazy Ensemble

[Elgarian]

Alan,
I don't have that set personally, but it has gotten a lot of love here, some of it rather recently. Your description of the masses is quite congruent with my own; Haydn was irrepressible, and his sunny outlook extends even to his "solemn" music, which in some cases isn't all that solemn at all! Hard to not like that, unless you are irrepressibly solemn yourself (as many were in those days).

Yes indeed. 'Joyful' is the word that seems to fit best, and one hears it even in the more solemn passages. In the lighter passages, I can't imagine that 'delight' could be better expressed through music. I'm still working through them - one mass per day - and yesterday encountered the Nikolaimesse on the third CD. Now call me a flighty old fool if you will, but the Kyrie that leads it off seems to me to be one of the loveliest three-minutes' worth I've heard for some time. The soprano (Ann Hoyt) sings as a leaf might sing, carried by a gentle wind, and in particular there's a melodic development after about 1m 50s that raises the game yet again: hair stirring on the back of the neck at the unexpectedness of it. So brief - such a fragment - yet saying so much.

[Gurn Blanston]

So, Haydn was a Notre Dame football fan?    Though being a practicing Catholic as well, I am with Gurn a bit in that sacred music is sacred music and I have never broken it into denominational categories.  I always draw out Bach's Passions around Lent/Easter season....just works for me.  However, for the most part, I never need a seasonal excuse to break out sacred music.  Like Handel's Messiah....it works for me year round.

Tonight, some favorites of many here:

Baryton Trios 1-7 (No HOB numbers....they did not add them later?)-Esterhazy Ensemble

Yes, I can agree with that. Sacred music was always a stumbling block for me until I arrived at that place where I didn't relate it to anyone's religious beliefs, I only took it for itself. Better now.

No, Bill, the first 7 baryton trios are Hob XI:1-7. They are all in the key of A major, BTW, and were composed in 1765. Maybe they just overlooked printing the numbers?

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes indeed. 'Joyful' is the word that seems to fit best, and one hears it even in the more solemn passages. In the lighter passages, I can't imagine that 'delight' could be better expressed through music. I'm still working through them - one mass per day - and yesterday encountered the Nikolaimesse on the third CD. Now call me a flighty old fool if you will, but the Kyrie that leads it off seems to me to be one of the loveliest three-minutes' worth I've heard for some time. The soprano (Ann Hoyt) sings as a leaf might sing, carried by a gentle wind, and in particular there's a melodic development after about 1m 50s that raises the game yet again: hair stirring on the back of the neck at the unexpectedness of it. So brief - such a fragment - yet saying so much.

I'm delighted that you are getting such an excellent experience from these. There are a lot of moments in Haydn that bring out the joy of life, and often times I think that what people have always called his 'musical  jokes' are more just his enthusiasm for the power he wields to share his own view of life in his art. It doesn't take more than a fragment to stir the spirit.

[Gurn Blanston]

OMG, the idea of a new thread, again. 

No, I'm not really interested in beginning a thread about this topic, I'm just interested in this particular issue: how is possible to be, for instance, "historically informed" about Haydn's sacred music if consciously it is decided to ignore any information about his ideas on religion. He was a devout Catholic, therefore his masses and other sacred works just can be properly understood in the context of his religion and its rites. I'm not Lutheran, but I understand that I can't try to understand Bach from a Catholic perspective and I accept without any problem even his invectives against the Pope...

All great composers are usually a true forrest of symbols and the religion (when they were men of religious faith, as Bach and Haydn) is not the last source to go to decipher their symbols.

If the interpreter is not interested in religion even culturally or from an intellectual point of view, it's another thing: a legitimate decision as a free man, but a limitation in order to understand the sacred music as an object of serious study.   

P.S.: When I did read "I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music", I couldn't avoid to recall the usual arguments of the anti-HIP advocates; the music as "absolute music", not related (relative music as opposed to absolute music?) to specific instruments, performing ideas, religious ideas, social ideas and so.

  Be bold, Antoine, thread support is une raison d'etre. Perfectly suited to your disposition, eh?

I'm not so sure that you are completely correct in your assessment. Intellectually, one can very much appreciate the music, and also even contextualize it without necessarily sharing in the beliefs that it is in support of. IOW, I don't have to be a Catholic to understand that and appreciate the value of music in a liturgical setting. Nor a Lutheran either. I concede it may help though, if the value comes solely from the inner relationship which a believer develops with the liturgy, so to say.