Haydn's Haus

[Elgarian]

4.- It's perfectly possible to enjoy music without this kind of knowledge, but sometimes this kind of knowledge enlarges our enjoyment, for instance, when a particular theological knowledge is important to illuminate a musical decision what, for instance, it's usual in Bach's sacred music.

5.- Absolute music doesn't exist. We, men, are always tied to something, particularly our ideas and beliefs (and not just religious ideas, of course).

The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable  idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

[mc ukrneal]

The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable  idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

Very nice answer for what can be a sensitive subject.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, did you get/receive those cheap Seasons conducted by Kuijken, offered at the AMP? I'm curious. 

Haven't received yet, although I got an email that they've shipped. Maybe be there this evening...

[SonicMan46]

Gurn, did you get/receive those cheap Seasons conducted by Kuijken, offered at the AMP? I'm curious. 

Antoine - I ordered a 'used' copy of the above about the same time the discussion was active (arrived a few days ago) - was under $2 (plus the $3 S/H) - was a 'cutout' and came w/ the top of the jewel box broken (simple fix since I have plenty of 'spare parts' around) - but MOST importantly the discs were pristine (must have been played just once if at all?) - Kuijken and his band are excellent - will need to re-listen to the singers.  Of course w/ this bargain re-packaging, the liner notes are nearly non-existent w/ no texts (but I'll probably buy the Jacobs recording if the price comes down?) - my only other minor complaint is that one needs to crank up the volume to really appreciate the entire performance - for the price, a great deal!  Dave

[Antoine Marchand]

The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable  idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

I totally agree with your comment, Elgarian. For some reason it recalled to me this Borges' joke: "Christianism is a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle." 

[Leo K.]

Right now, I'm enjoying Haydn's very impressive 'Armida' since aquiring Dorati's recordings of Haydn's operas:



Haydn's operas (this is my second one to hear) are very enjoyable! I love his vocal works now!

[Gurn Blanston]

Right now, I'm enjoying Haydn's very impressive 'Armida' since aquiring Dorati's recordings of Haydn's operas:



Haydn's operas (this is my second one to hear) are very enjoyable! I love his vocal works now!

Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too.

[Leo K.]

Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too.

I too believe Haydn achieved a good balance between vocal and instrumental works. As much as I love his vocal music, thank god we have all those symphonies, quartets, sonatas, etc!



I like the wind writing in Haydn's Armida 

[Gurn Blanston]

I like the wind writing in Haydn's Armida 

Oh, I see what you're doing now; well, I don't have time to spend the afternoon listening to operas. Away with you,  evil taunter!   

[Antoine Marchand]

Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too.

One thing I have always liked in Haydn is that, apparently, he spent very few hours thinking in posterity. His duties were so many that he had no time for those ideas. But apparently again during his last years, when London and all of that, he began to think: well, maybe my output won't survive because I have composed too much instrumental music and the great music, the music for posterity is vocal music. That would explain, for instance, a monumental attempt as the Creation. But here Haydn was wrong for one time because for the two coming centuries the real music was the instrumental music, under the form of symphonies, concertos and sonatas. Well, two of three (I mean symphonies and sonatas) is not a bad score for our "Papa", isn't it?   

[Gurn Blanston]

One thing I have always liked in Haydn is that, apparently, he spent very few hours thinking in posterity. His duties were so many that he had no time for those ideas. But apparently again during his last years, when London and all of that, he began to think: well, maybe my output won't survive because I have composed too much instrumental music and the great music, the music for posterity is vocal music. That would explain, for instance, a monumental attempt as the Creation. But here Haydn was wrong for one time because for the two coming centuries the real music was the instrumental music, under the form of symphonies, concertos and sonatas. Well, two of three (I mean symphonies and sonatas) is not a bad score for our "Papa", isn't it?   

From all I have read, Antoine, you are exactly right. He was reacting to the way things were in his time, and in the modern parlance, he would have looked at the growth of instrumental music in the 50 years after his death and said "whoa, I didn't see that coming! ". So yes, pioneering without being aware of it, which is the greatest style one can hope for; being a true model even after death.

[Leo K.]

Oh, I see what you're doing now; well, I don't have time to spend the afternoon listening to operas. Away with you,  evil taunter!   

Hahaha! 

[chasmaniac]

I bought this set on an experimental whim a couple of years ago while on holiday, and was surprised to find how delightfully easy Haydn's masses were to listen to. Not light, exactly, but I could understand why, in his day, some of his masses were not regarded as serious enough to be sacred. Anyway, on that holiday I worked my way through the box - a different mass every day - and was well-pleased with my purchase.

Yet somehow the box stayed on the shelf after I carried it home, and only in the last couple of days have I blown the dust off it. And again, I'm so very pleasantly surprised by the exquisite character of what I'm hearing. I've no basis for comparison with other recordings, but I've no reason to question the performances - some lovely singing, and a good crisp period sound. Do other folk have this box? Any comments?

Synchronicity! While I was in the shop picking up the Immerseel LvB, and some Beck, Richter & Stamitz pere, I saw this on the shelf, threw Protestant discipline to the winds and bought it. I have the Stabat Mater on right now and its lightness and prettiness have, temporarily no doubt, banished this ugly world's cares from my tired old soul. Delight! Delight! And what is wrong with that?

[mc ukrneal]

A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:


I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month )!

[Elgarian]

Synchronicity! While I was in the shop picking up the Immerseel LvB, and some Beck, Richter & Stamitz pere, I saw this on the shelf, threw Protestant discipline to the winds and bought it.

Never look a synchronistic gift horse in the mouth, is what I say.

I have the Stabat Mater on right now and its lightness and prettiness have, temporarily no doubt, banished this ugly world's cares from my tired old soul. Delight! Delight! And what is wrong with that?

From the Stabat Mater onwards, I think it gets better and better. If you like what you've heard so far, you're in for a great time. The soprano - what's her name? - Ann Hoyt: her singing has the lightness of a summer breeze.

[chasmaniac]

A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:


I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month )!

This isn't going to be terrifically helpful, but I' remember being disappointed by the Gardiner - I don't know why - and I think I've listened to it all of twice. The Naxos box, which I'm still exploring, is fabulous.

[Bogey]

In the spinner:

Trumpet Concerto HOB VIIE:1
Horn Concerto No. 1 HOB VIII:3
Horn Concerto No. 2 HOB VIID:4

Alan Stringer Trumpet
Hermann Baumann Horn

ASMF
Marriner (Trumpet Concerto)
Brown (Horn Concertos)

[Bogey]

Rolling No. 3 out from this set:



I have seen the movie Eroica....enjoyed it.  However, wanted to know what you know about LvB's and Haydn's actual meetings with one another.  Did Haydn actually hear the premier of this No. 3.....was he actually quoted?  What is fact and what is legend?

[SonicMan46]

A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:


I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month )!

Neal - don't know if you have any of these masses; if not, then I would strongly suggest getting the Naxos box - great value & excellent performances; now I also have the 'late masses' w/ Gardiner & Weil - the latter a new purchase, but have not done any comparisons - I got Gardiner when a member of the old BMG Club for very little but seems to be OOP; now the Weil, a new purchase is outstanding to my ears! Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

now the Weil, a new purchase is outstanding to my ears!

Hmm.. hhmmm. Ah, you like then? The Gurnatron 5500^TM comes through again.