Haydn's Haus

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks, Gurn. 
I am interested in singles and full sets, but right now I'm budgeted for singles, listening to samples from the Bilson disc and it's very appealing.

[Gurn Blanston]

Do you know if this is the original 1749 version or the revised version from 1805? I tend to think that Hickox follows the revised score because the instrumental part of the original is composed for two violins, bass and organ and the orchestral accompaniment of Hickox sounds quite more populated.

I thought it would be interesting to add the liner notes from the Chandos disc about the Missa Brevis in F:

Yes, that bit from the liner notes is interesting, and sort of... homey. I like that!

As for Hickox' scoring here, I don't know for sure what he uses since he doesn't expand at all.  According to Feder (New Grove Haydn), the parts that Haydn added were "winds and timpani". As I listen to it right now, there is no chance that a wind or percussion instrument slipping past the ear unheard. So I don't think it is the revised (in 1805-06) version at all.

However, it is very difficult to judge some other things. Specifically, Haydn wrote "2 sopranos, 4 voices, 2 violins & BC (organ)". But that is like "strings". Does "4 voices" mean a chorus of 4 people? Or does it mean there are 4 choral voice parts and you can put as many on a part as feels right to you? It seems to MY ear that Hickox chose the latter route, but now the rascal has gone and died on us just to avoid answering that question.                                              

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, Gurn. 
I am interested in singles and full sets, but right now I'm budgeted for singles, listening to samples from the Bilson disc and it's very appealing.

Greg,
Ah, very good. To me, Bilson is at the top of the heap as a fortepianist. He has wonderful touch that just draws you into the music. You can tell it isn't just a display of empty virtuosity with him. I got that disk from one of the Marketplace vendors brand new for like $13, which is a great price for a Claves disk.   0:)

[Antoine Marchand]

As for Hickox' scoring here, I don't know for sure what he uses since he doesn't expand at all.  According to Feder (New Grove Haydn), the parts that Haydn added were "winds and timpani". As I listen to it right now, there is no chance that a wind or percussion instrument slipping past the ear unheard. So I don't think it is the revised (in 1805-06) version at all.

I totally agree with the highlighted part; but if we believe the notes of the CD, the instrumentation includes bassoon and trumpet.

The exact forces used by Hickox are:

Soloists
Susan Gritton, soprano
Pamela Helen Stephen, mezzo-soprano

Collegium Musicum 90
Richard Hickox, conductor

violin I
Simon Standage David Rubio 1997, copy of a Guarnerius
Micaela Comberti David Rubio 1996, based on Del Gesu 'The Paganini', 1742
Clare Salaman Thomas Smith, 1760
Susan Carpenter-Jacobs Lockey Hill, 1766

violin II
Miles Golding Florianus Bosy, Bologna 1763
Diane Moore Anon., English or Flemish c. 1780
Stephen Bull Anon., Genoese (?), mid-18th century
Ann Monnington Lockey Hill, late-18th century

cello
Richard Tunicliffe Thomas Smith, c. 1770
Helen Verney Anon., English 1730

bass
Elizabeth Bradley Le Jeune, French 1750

bassoon
Sally Jackson Peter de Köningh 1993, copy of Grenser c. 1810

trumpet
Crispian Steele-Perkins W. Shaw/H. Kent, original English slide trumpet, London 1785–1885

organ
James O'Donnell 5-stop chamber organ by N.P. Mander Ltd

Chorus: soprano (eight) - alto (five) - tenor (five) - bass (six)

However, it is very difficult to judge some other things. Specifically, Haydn wrote "2 sopranos, 4 voices, 2 violins & BC (organ)". But that is like "strings". Does "4 voices" mean a chorus of 4 people? Or does it mean there are 4 choral voice parts and you can put as many on a part as feels right to you? It seems to MY ear that Hickox chose the latter route, but now the rascal has gone and died on us just to avoid answering that question.

Naxos adds this interesting information:

Missa brevis (1805 revision)
in F major
(Hob.XXII:1; 1749, revised 1805)
In 1789 the German music-publishing firm of Breitkopf and Härtel wrote to Haydn requesting music to publish, and it subsequently issued a two-movement keyboard sonata (Hob.XIV:48) as part of a continuing series Musikalischer Pot-Pourri – or as Haydn sarcastically called it, the 'Musical Vegetable Pot'. Despite Haydn's seeming disdain for their initial collaboration, the firm became Haydn's principal publisher after 1796. Although at first they were not interested in any of Haydn's sacred music, they re-evaluated their decision after the success of The Creation and The Seasons, publishing five of the six late Masses after 1802 (with the exception of the Theresienmesse, which Haydn curiously did not offer the firm). Breitkopf and Härtel's new interest in his vocal music led Haydn to revisit some of his more youthful works, among them the early Missa brevis in F. In 1805 one of Haydn's visitors wrote, 'By chance he had found one of his earliest works, a small Mass... This composition pleased him anew, and now he is adding parts to it, in order that this earliest and perhaps last product of his genius could be presented to Prince Esterházy as a sign of grateful recognition. Haydn significantly expanded the work's orchestration, adding flute, clarinets, bassoons, trumpets and timpani to the setting he had composed over fifty years prior. The Missa brevis may indeed have been presented to Nicolaus II, but the motivation behind the work's reorchestration was likely more mercenary. According to Griesinger, who served as Haydn's liaison to Breitkopf and Härtel, the setting was among twelve works offered for sale in 1805. While the firm purchased the music, most of it (including the revised Missa brevis) never made it into print.

Well, I suppose this will be a long road as this is the just the first entry to the chronological catalogue. And the second one is supposed to be spurious!!!

[Gurn Blanston]

I totally agree with the highlighted part; but if we believe the notes of the CD, the instrumentation includes bassoon and trumpet.

The exact forces used by Hickox are:

Soloists
Susan Gritton, soprano
Pamela Helen Stephen, mezzo-soprano

Collegium Musicum 90
Richard Hickox, conductor

violin I
Simon Standage David Rubio 1997, copy of a Guarnerius
Micaela Comberti David Rubio 1996, based on Del Gesu 'The Paganini', 1742
Clare Salaman Thomas Smith, 1760
Susan Carpenter-Jacobs Lockey Hill, 1766

violin II
Miles Golding Florianus Bosy, Bologna 1763
Diane Moore Anon., English or Flemish c. 1780
Stephen Bull Anon., Genoese (?), mid-18th century
Ann Monnington Lockey Hill, late-18th century

cello
Richard Tunicliffe Thomas Smith, c. 1770
Helen Verney Anon., English 1730

bass
Elizabeth Bradley Le Jeune, French 1750

bassoon
Sally Jackson Peter de Köningh 1993, copy of Grenser c. 1810

trumpet
Crispian Steele-Perkins W. Shaw/H. Kent, original English slide trumpet, London 1785–1885

organ
James O'Donnell 5-stop chamber organ by N.P. Mander Ltd

Chorus: soprano (eight) - alto (five) - tenor (five) - bass (six)

Naxos adds this interesting information:

Well, I suppose this will be a long road as this is the just the first entry to the chronological catalogue. And the second one is supposed to be spurious!!!

But that mass is on the same disk as the Nelsonmesse. Of course all those players are on there, one has to expect that!! But if you simply listen to the Missa Brevis itself, I guarantee you that there in no more than the 2 sopranos, a small chorus, some strings (I can't tell how many) and the organ playing a rather busy continuo. Unless my ripper selectively filtered out all those instruments.

[Antoine Marchand]

But that mass is on the same disk as the Nelsonmesse. Of course all those players are on there, one has to expect that!! But if you simply listen to the Missa Brevis itself, I guarantee you that there in no more than the 2 sopranos, a small chorus, some strings (I can't tell how many) and the organ playing a rather busy continuo. Unless my ripper selectively filtered out all those instruments.

You're right, the same disc includes the Nelsonmesse; but the booklet carefully indicates the instruments only included in the Nelson Mass. Those additional instruments are: three first violins, two second violins, four violas, one cello, one bass, two trumpets and timpani. I have excluded those instruments from the previous list. 

[Antoine Marchand]

Interestingly I found this version of the Missa brevis F major, with two boys as soloists, based on the (highly improbable) assumption that Haydn (a 17 y.o. boy then) may have composed this work for him and his brother Michael:

http://www.youtube.com/v/JvWBiNZL-xU

[Gurn Blanston]

You're right, the same disc includes the Nelsonmesse; but the booklet carefully indicates the instruments only included in the Nelson Mass. Those additional instruments are: three first violins, two second violins, four violas, one cello, one bass, two trumpets and timpani. I have excluded those instruments from the previous list.

MY booklet doesn't carefully indicate anything like that. You must not have the Complete Mass set, but the singles. Mine does have the quote you quoted from the big text, but the parts outside of that are more limited. That is, it doesn't differentiate the players except on the entire disk.

I just pulled out and listened to the actual CD opposed to the MP3's (which I listened to twice). Other than clearly showing that there are more strings than one would hope for (although it can't be said that "strings" means any certain number), if there is a cello, baß and particularly a bassoon reinforcing the organ's bass, it would be very hard to say it was so. The only other part that I wasn't rather surer about is the beginning of the Benedictus, where a trumpet could actually be playing the part that I feel is the 1st violin part. I waver on that, it could be either.

So where are we going with this, Antoine? Are you advocating that we throw these disks away and find a new performance that is scored better? I actually like this version, even if your worst fears are realized!   

[Gurn Blanston]

Interestingly I found this version of the Missa brevis F major, with two boys as soloists, based on the (highly improbable) assumption that Haydn (a 17 y.o. boy then) may have composed this work for him and his brother Michael:

Well, that's an interesting performance. It is always possible that he had in mind a chorister from St Stephens, but certainly, by 1749/50 he was not thinking of performing it himself. Notes like that were well outside his range by then, which was the reason he was an ex-chorister! So you're right, highly improbable!

[SonicMan46]

Thanks Gurn for starting this chronological discussion of Haydn's works - has already generated plenty of interesting comments, and will give me a chance to review (cull & revise?) my Papa Joe collection; some of those boxes already look quite familiar -    I can certainly support the Brautigam & Schornsheim recommendations!  Keep up the great input!  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks Gurn for starting this chronological discussion of Haydn's works - has already generated plenty of interesting comments, and will give me a chance to review (cull & revise?) my Papa Joe collection; some of those boxes already look quite familiar -    I can certainly support the Brautigam & Schornsheim recommendations!  Keep up the great input!  Dave

Hey, Dave. Glad you joined us. Well, as you know, I'm not much of a recommender, for me the history aspect was the main thing. However, having to have music to go with the history put me in that position. That's why I am always happy to hear alternative rec's. I know you have a lot of disks, so if you know of an alternative performance, feel free to put it in here. I haven't locked the door on my collection yet; there always room for more!   

[SonicMan46]

I'm going to start with 1749, Haydn was only 17 years old, recently booted out of the church choir for having his voice change and possibly dipping a neighbor's pigtail in an inkwell. He was totally on his own in Vienna and living in an attic apartment, giving keyboard lessons and learning how to compose. These are his earliest surviving efforts;

1749
Hob 22_01 - Missa Brevis in F    
Hob 22_03 - Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'    
   Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
 

For the Complete Masses, I own the Naxos box (inserted above) which I find excellent - contains both versions of the Missa Brevis, but not the Hob 22_03 described above - but just another consideration and $32 on the Amazon MP for 8 discs and a superb booklet!

P.S. I don't own the Motets - really worth a purchase?  Dave 

[SonicMan46]

Any other recommendations for Haydn sonatas on pianoforte? The Christine Schornsheim set is tempting but a little pricey for me at the moment. I currently own several Jando/Naxos discs and one from Emanuel Ax, I throughly enjoy them, but have been bitten by the pianoforte bug ever since I purchased The Last 4 Piano Trios with Robert Levin on Sony Classical.

Well, you could end your dilemma by buying one of the big boxes w/ Schorsheim or Brautigam - own both and excellent choices - not sure if you might pick up just one, which I would suggest even suggest?

Now just to 'throw in' another less expensive but not complete option, i.e. Anreas Staier on several different fortepianos - I picked this one up cheaply (and still is on Amazon MP) as a member of the GMG club years ago - 3 CDs - I've not listen to these recordings in a while but remember not liking them as much as the others mentioned on this instrument, so might want to wait for others to 'chime in' - a rather negative review is available on MusicWeb HERE, but my feeling is that the reviewer is NOT a fortepiano enthusiast? 

[Gurn Blanston]

For the Complete Masses, I own the Naxos box (inserted above) which I find excellent - contains both versions of the Missa Brevis, but not the Hob 22_03 described above - but just another consideration and $32 on the Amazon MP for 8 discs and a superb booklet!

P.S. I don't own the Motets - really worth a purchase?  Dave 

Well, the #3, the "rorate coeli desuper" in G major, is one of those early works that is problematic. I think that a set could go either way, have it or not have it, and not be wrong. I don't want to type out all the various ideas about it (although basically Haydn's claim in 1805 about writing something in 1749 could well be mistaken), but the current thinking is that it might have been a student mass when he was learning from Reutter at St. Stephens, and thus be a little of Haydn, a little of Reutter. It is scarcely 7 minutes long (although with good reason, since it does really stylishly cool things like singing 4 different lines of text at the same time). Anyway, it's nothing to buy a box set for! (Nice to have if it came along for the ride with something else though).

The motets are really quite nice. He hadn't surpassed Bach yet in the motet department, but that doesn't make it not good. I just re-listened to them after your question. Thanks for that.   They are quite nice, but like the Mass in G above, not something I would buy a box set for. They are here in the Weil set that was only sold in the Benelux Countries, it has several pieces that the version sold worldwide doesn't have. I don't know another recording of them (although there likely is one).

EDIT: Added picture







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Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_077 Symphony in Bb 1st mvmt - Vivace

[SonicMan46]

By 1753, however, there are many pieces still with us. There seem to be 2 preoccupations now musically. The first, which he spoke of fondly in later years, was the street serenading that was so very popular in Vienna. For a high-spirited 19 year old, dirt-poor musician with many friends in the business, writing and playing serenades and divertimentos was big fun. Secondly would seem to be keyboard music, both private (sonatas & variations) and public (church concertos that accomplished learning, financial and 'making contacts'). Here is what I have from 1753:

Hob 02_02 - Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings   
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss

Boy, I can just imagine the atmosphere of late 18th century Vienna - must have been a wonderful period (as long as you had a good health insurance plan!  ); but I do have some of Papa Haydn's Divertimenti, but may not be as 'period oriented' as preferred by Gurn (or me for that matter but enjoy the ones below):

Divertimentos for Wind w/ Consortium Classicum - bargain 4-disc set; brief liner notes by Klöcker - older recordings but still quite enjoyable for the price of admission!

Seven Divertimenti w/ the London Wind Soloists recorded in 1967 (so not period), but a disc that I've owned for ages and thoroughly enjoy - these wind works by Papa Haydn really can be performed in a number of quite enjoyable manners!  Dave

 

[Antoine Marchand]

MY booklet doesn't carefully indicate anything like that. You must not have the Complete Mass set, but the singles. Mine does have the quote you quoted from the big text, but the parts outside of that are more limited. That is, it doesn't differentiate the players except on the entire disk.

Well, I'll give you a tip, Gurn. I also have the Complete Mass set, but some years ago (when I purchased a big Chandos anniversary box set), I discovered that these Chandos guys are really nice chaps and they have all their booklets available online. For instance, this one: http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%200640.pdf

So where are we going with this, Antoine? Are you advocating that we throw these disks away and find a new performance that is scored better? I actually like this version, even if your worst fears are realized!

No, not at all. I also like that Chandos version. But I consider extraordinarily beautiful to imagine the old Haydn revising this old composition, written 55 years before when he was a teenager. Anyway, just for the record, I will say that the Naxos set includes 2 versions of this mass (1749 & 1749 revised), both of them heavenly sung by two delicious sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Boy, I can just imagine the atmosphere of late 18th century Vienna - must have been a wonderful period (as long as you had a good health insurance plan!  ); but I do have some of Papa Haydn's Divertimenti, but may not be as 'period oriented' as preferred by Gurn (or me for that matter but enjoy the ones below):

Divertimentos for Wind w/ Consortium Classicum - bargain 4-disc set; brief liner notes by Klöcker - older recordings but still quite enjoyable for the price of admission!

Seven Divertimenti w/ the London Wind Soloists recorded in 1967 (so not period), but a disc that I've owned for ages and thoroughly enjoy - these wind works by Papa Haydn really can be performed in a number of quite enjoyable manners!  Dave

 

Agreed, health was worth its weight in gold back then, because if you couldn't fight it off on your own it was adios! I think my diverticulitis of a couple years back would have been a tad more fatal with just "black powder" to fight it off... 

Anyway, I enjoy both of those disks/sets you mentioned. The London Wind Soloists, despite being, as you say "so not period", were among the very best wind players of their generation, and they do a very earnest job playing Haydn damn well.

The Klöcker set is another fine box of entertainment. It has the pathological defect of having virtually none of the works actually being by Haydn, but I don't let that stop me enjoying it, nor should anyone else. The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!





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Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_078 Symphony in c 1st mvmt - Vivace

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I'll give you a tip, Gurn. I also have the Complete Mass set, but some years ago (when I purchased a big Chandos anniversary box set), I discovered that these Chandos guys are really nice chaps and they have all their booklets available online. For instance, this one: http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%200640.pdf

Ah, I knew that, but didn't check in this instance because I thought the huge book in the Complete was, well, complete! It's thick as a brick, after all.

No, not at all. I also like that Chandos version. But I consider extraordinarily beautiful to imagine the old Haydn revising this old composition, written 55 years before when he was a teenager. Anyway, just for the record, I will say that the Naxos set includes 2 versions of this mass (1749 & 1749 revised), both of them heavenly sung by two delicious sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston.

OK, I was just checking where you were coming from and going to. I was eminently happy with the Hickox, despite that it sounds a trifle 'big'. But it's a learning process all the time, you know? Ever since I asked here 8 years ago what people thought that "and strings" meant vis-a-vis precise numbers (and got no answers!), and then I discovered that S-A-T-B could just as easily mean 4S-4A-4T-4B and I wouldn't know it, I have been doubting whether anything I 'know' is right.   



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Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_078 Symphony in c 2nd mvmt - Adagio

[Antoine Marchand]

The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!

Damn, Gurn! You really know where to hit. I've been watching this set for several months, but it's quite expensive. But I suppose these discs will be essential school materials for this new project.

[Gurn Blanston]

Damn, Gurn! You really know where to hit. I've been watching this set for several months, but it's quite expensive. But I suppose these discs will be essential school materials for this new project.

  I waited for 2 years for BIS to release that box. That's where I 'met' Anna in Stockholm, she used to keep me apprised of its slow progress through the system. And I bought it the day it was released. The fact is, this is the only disk I have ever done that with. Glad I did though.

I haven't shopped for it recently, what sort of $$$ do they want for it these days? I paid $50 at Arkiv, a bargain by any definition.

And yes, essential material. There will be a quiz after...




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Now playing:
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Hob 01a_16 Orlando Paladino: Sinfonia in Bb