Haydn's Haus

[prémont]

Pseudo-HIP

Well, some further elaboration seems to be needed.

[mc ukrneal]

Deciding on the importance of period instruments vs modern would be one way to narrow the choices, but I think fundamentally, your question is: how do they differ and what do each group bring to their set? I am not the best to answer that, but I can say that of those I have heard and those I have read about - it seems that all of them are pretty good (so you really cannot go wrong). I was recently deciding myself this same issue, and I decided to try a few different versions first to see which I would prefer (and perhaps I will continue that way). Also, youtube does have some longer clips, and while not in best sound, should help you to decide which you prefer.

I wouldn't worry about picking the 'best' one. It's like Wagner Ring cycles - each is different, bring their own strengths, and have their own insights that are different (not necessarily better).

[DavidRoss]

  Sampling is proving to lead nowhere as the snippets are never long enough for me to make an fully informed decision.  Now what do I do??? 

Why sample these days?  Between Spotify, Naxos, & Mog (and I used to use Rhapsody before they messed up their service levels)--not to mention various non-authorized downloads--I can usually hear full selections of almost anything over the internet before buying.

I do not have a complete set, only the 20-some works recorded by Quatuor Mosaïques, and they more than satisfy me.

[marvinbrown]

Unfortunately a previous decision is required: period or modern instruments? I think this is a territory where this decision is extremely important. I like, for instance, Beethoven in period performances, but I also fully enjoy his piano sonatas, symphonies and so played on modern instruments. But I consider the importance of period period instruments in Haydn is quite more essential than in Beethoven or Brahms to mention two names.

I would distinguish:

1.- Radical HIP: Quatuor Festetics (Arcana)

2.- HIP even for people who don't usually enjoy HIP performances: Quatuor Mosaïques (Naïve, although their cycle is far of being complete)   


3.- Pseudo-HIP: Buchberger Quartet (Brilliant Classics)

4.- Modern instruments: Aeolian Quartet (Decca), The Angeles String Quartet (Philips), Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton) & Kodaly Quartet (Naxos). 

1 & 2 are my favorites, but I have previously made some decisions about this point. 

  Thank you Antoine Marchand for providing me with a template of the various styles that I SHOULD be considering! I say should because I have not taken these into consideration.  As a general rule I am not an HIP affectionado. But then again I tend to be a bit of a purist in the sense that I can not accept the concept of playing J.S.Bach on the piano. I also have Mozart's clarinet concerto K622 on the basset clarinet, the instrument he composed it for. So I guess I am quite open to the idea of HIP. 


  From what I can see I am going to have to buy a few recordings here and there to see what I like.  It is too risky to buy a complete set and be dissatisfied with it.


  Marvin

[Antoine Marchand]

  Thank you Antoine Marchand for providing me with a template of the various styles that I SHOULD be considering! I say should because I have not taken these into consideration.  As a general rule I am not an HIP affectionado. But then again I tend to be a bit of a purist in the sense that I can not accept the concept of playing J.S.Bach on the piano. I also have Mozart's clarinet concerto K622 on the basset clarinet, the instrument he composed it for. So I guess I am quite open to the idea of HIP. 


  From what I can see I am going to have to buy a few recordings here and there to see what I like.  It is too risky to buy a complete set and be dissatisfied with it.


  Marvin

You're welcome, Marvin.

If I decided to do a bet, I think you would probably enjoy very much the Quatuor Mosaïques. If I am not totally wrong, your general attitude regarding the HIP movement it is not very different to David Ross or Sarge. And both of them have said great things about the Mosaïques.

Additionally, their ten discs are currently sold as two box sets:

[asin]B001F0K004[/asin]
[Opp. 64, 76, 77]

[asin]B001F0JZZU[/asin]
[Opp. 20 & 33; The Seven Last Words of Our Savior]

The first box set contains the most popular stuff, but I would prefer to choose the latter as first choice. That opus 20 is just superb and the Last Seven Words (string quartet version, of course) deep and beautiful.

[jlaurson]

You're welcome, Marvin.

If I decided to do a bet, I think you would probably enjoy very much the Quatuor Mosaïques. If I am not totally wrong, your general attitude regarding the HIP movement it is not very different to David Ross or Sarge.
And both of them have said great things about the Mosaïques.

Additionally, their ten discs are currently sold as two box sets:


The first box set contains the most popular stuff, but I would prefer to choose the latter as first choice. That opus 20 is just superb and the Last Seven Words (string quartet version, of course) deep and beautiful.

Antoine's recommendation of the Mosaiques for you is wholeheartedly seconded!!
It's terrific and you can always complete the Haydn Quartets elsewhere with other quartets, exploring into either direction of HIPness/nonHIPness. These, meanwhile, are simply wonderful--no issues of yes-HIP or no-HIP (need) come into that evaluation.

[Bulldog]

Considering that Marvin is far from settled concerning performance style, the idea of acquiring a complete set is likely not a good one.  Better to acquire single discs or very small sets.  I do agree that the Mosaiques sounds like the best way to go.

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, some further elaboration seems to be needed.

I think it exists certain misunderstanding about the Buchbergers because their (modernized) period instruments are listed in their booklets and they play with few vibrato; but I think they sound as the typical modern string quartets from the middle of the seventies. Nothing wrong about this, but very different to the Festetics and the Mosaïques. 

[jlaurson]

I think it exists certain misunderstanding about the Buchbergers because their (modernized) period instruments are listed in their
booklets and they play with few vibrato; but I think they sound as the typical modern string quartets from the middle of the
seventies. Nothing wrong about this, but very different to the Festetics and the Mosaïques.

That's about right...

but it should be noted that Festetics and Mosaïques are probably even further from each other than Buchberger and, say, Festetics -- HIP or not.

From http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259 about op.33 -- but valid pretty much throughout.

Pitch: The Buchbergers, although 'HIP', play at A=440 Herz, like the 'modern' groups. [...]
Phrasing: the Buchbergers and the Festetics tend towards shortened phrases, and rougher bowing, but the Mosaïques don't [...] the Frankfurt-based Buchberger Quartet manages to be brash, casual, and wild with a far more professional aftertaste.
Tempos: The Buchbergers' are the most consistently fastest of the performing groups, but in individual movements the Casals Quartet attempts to break speed records...Quatuors Festetics and Mosaïques meanwhile take the most time,

[jlaurson]

Just a quick, distracting note before I hand the mic. back to Gurn.

Something I came across just now. The previous incarnation was as Blu-Ray discs -- these are plain, old audio CDs.

Crimeny. That reminds me: I've had the Blu-Ray version for what... over two years now and for lack of access to a player I've still not listened to it. Same with Weinberg's The Passenger. Hmmm...
I suppose it will have to wait a little longer.

[Gurn Blanston]

Crimeny. That reminds me: I've had the Blu-Ray version for what... over two years now and for lack of access to a player I've still not listened to it. Same with Weinberg's The Passenger. Hmmm...
I suppose it will have to wait a little longer.

Exactly why I didn't get it yet. Not that I had a hope of a CD version release, that's totally a surprise. But I was actually planning on doing what you did while it was still available in the hope that one day I would get the equipment. I think you will like Beghin, he is a very talented player.

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 4

1754 - 55

1754 & 1755 are, once again, very short on surviving works. It is very unlikely that Haydn didn't compose, perhaps even prodigiously, in this time period. The fact that the works from 1756 onward are so polished, even in comparison to those of his older contemporaries, seems to indicate that he was working pretty hard on technique and developing his own style as he went along.

Last Part, we talked about meeting various famous personages, such as Gluck and Wagenseil while in the company of Porpora and Metastasio. Also, assisting in the training of 'Fräulein Martinez'. Access to such personages – whose overlapping relations were as much social as artistic – was essential for an aspiring young musician. 'Fräulein Martinez' was the composer and singer Marianne von Martínez. At the court of Joseph Friedrich, Prince of Sachsen-Hildburghausen (1702–87), Haydn would also have encountered Dittersdorf (whom he certainly knew by the mid-1750s) and Giuseppe Bonno, later Hofkapellmeister.

All these events took place during the first half of the 1750s. Haydn's instruction of Martínez began in 1751 or 1752; presumably his three years with Metastasio were from 1751 to 1754. Porpora arrived in Vienna from Dresden in late 1752 or early 1753; Haydn might well have met him in March 1753, when Metastasio was considering him as composer of his new opera L'isola disabitata (which in the event he assigned to Bonno; Haydn himself set this libretto in 1779). Given the mastery of Haydn's music by 1755–6, 1753 or 1754 are the latest plausible dates for his having 'learnt the true fundamentals of composition' from Porpora, whose expert knowledge of singing and Italian ('singing' in this context implies Italian opera and oratorio) was also of great importance; Haydn became fluent in Italian and the Italianate singing style. In addition, it may well have been at Porpora's instigation that he systematically worked through Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum (the only work mentioned by any source that offers 'true fundamentals'). After his death, his copy of Fux was found in his library, heavily used and annotated.

Here, then, is the surviving music of 1754-55;

1754
Hob 02_09 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Baß   
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss



1755
Hob 16_05 Sonata #8 in A for Keyboard    (Cembalo)
Christine Schornsheim



As mentioned earlier, we are going to see divertimentos for a while! This is his first major instrumental work and a very fine one. As was not unusual in those days, a lot of works fall under the "Divertimento Umbrella". This one, however, is one, in the classic sense, with a movement scheme of 1. Fast (Allegro molto) 2. Dance I (Minuet) 3. Slow (Adagio cantabile), 4. Dance II (Minuet) and 5. Fast  (Finale: Presto). Huss and Co. do an excellent job with this work, as they seem always to do. Their invaluable box set saves us yet again from wondering what this work might sound like, since I haven't found another version of it to compare. Fortunately, I don't need one!   

The survivor from c. 1755 is the A major keyboard sonata. This is one of those works that don't have solid authentication. We'll see more of those, for sure! It is attributed to Haydn, and as yet, it has never been attributed to anyone else, so it is accepted with reservations. My personal feeling is that if we only accept works that we actually saw him compose, our own legacy from that age will be sadly diminished.   Nonetheless, it is a delightful little work (12:35) in 3 movements ending with a zippy presto. It is performed here by Schornsheim in her inimitable way, on a Dowd double manual harpsichord with a lovely tone.

And that's it for these years. Beginning next year, we will see the composer begin to bloom, as the hard work and learning of the previous six years bear fruit. But do enjoy these works, they are a taste of things to come.

[Mandryka]

The primary  questions are about timbre,  phrasing, balance,  tempo and texture, tautness and relaxedness.  And I would say that the big differences here don't follow the HIP/non-HIP boundary. To take a example Festetics use PI and Tatrai don't but in terms of overall sound they have some things in common.

I also think it's silly (not to mince words) to plunge into a big box of everything by one quartet just because I think it's unlikely that any ensemble is equally  inspired everywhere. And there are so many different interesting ways to play this music.

For example, even if you love  Festetics' rather distinctive timbre.  you may not want them in Op 71.

By the way I'm not a fan of Mosaiques though I can see that they're suppleness and liveliness is entertaining, diverting and anodyne . For example  I think in Op 64 they're shallow compared to Festetics. Just listen to their Op 64/2/ii compared with Festetics and you'll see what I mean.

[marvinbrown]

  I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback.  You all have given me much to think about.  I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment.  Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings, which are affordable, of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings with various ensembles I can check out.  I'd like to experiment a bit here. 

[mc ukrneal]

  I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback.  You all have given me much to think about.  I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment.  Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings I can check out.  I'd like to expirement a bit here. 

I think that is a good way to start. Not too long ago, and I think it was in one of the haydn threads, I asked for some rec's about individual recordings of each Opus. I'll link it if (when) I find it.

EDIT: Here (start with post 829): http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.820.html

[jlaurson]

  I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback.  You all have given me much to think about.  I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment.  Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings, which are affordable, of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings with various ensembles I can check out.  I'd like to experiment a bit here.

In that case, let's hope you come across this recording, too:
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=553
Haydn 2009 – Minetti Quartet(t)
Among the recent Haydn, a treasure. (As is the Quatuor Ebene's [Mirare], in case that pops up in the library)

[Antoine Marchand]

The primary  questions are about timbre,  phrasing, balance,  tempo and texture, tautness and relaxedness.  And I would say that the big differences here don't follow the HIP/non-HIP boundary. To take a example Festetics use PI and Tatrai don't but in terms of overall sound they have some things in common.

I disagree. I think the use of properly restored period instruments (or copies of them) is essential for Haydn. Their tone, palette of colors and warmness make a huge difference in terms of texture and balance. Obviously the HIP movement (being a reaction against the Romantic standardization) doesn't search for any kind of uniformity and that's the reason why the Festetics and the Mosaïques are quite different from the point of view of the interpretation (specially tempi and articulation): the Festetics being like a party at home and the Mosaïques as a sort of "symphonic" chamber music. Personally, I prefer the first approach.

Off-topic: I would recommend to all those members who really want to evaluate the real impact of period instruments in music, to avoid compressed files (MP3). IMO those files are another great enemy of period instruments.

[Mandryka]

I disagree. I think the use of properly restored period instruments (or copies of them) is essential for Haydn. Their tone, palette of colors and warmness make a huge difference in terms of texture and balance. Obviously the HIP movement (being a reaction against the Romantic standardization) doesn't search for any kind of uniformity and that's the reason why the Festetics and the Mosaïques are quite different from the point of view of the interpretation (specially tempi and articulation): the Festetics being like a party at home and the Mosaïques as a sort of "symphonic" chamber music. Personally, I prefer the first approach.

Off-topic: I would recommend to all those members who really want to evaluate the real impact of period instruments in music, to avoid compressed files (MP3). IMO those files are another great enemy of period instruments.

But the tone, palette of colors and warmness of the Apponyi is so different from the Festetics. And the tone of Festetics has I think something in common with the Tatrai (Hungarianness  )  That's why I say that the important questions are independent of HIP/non-HIP.

Do you think that certain balances are more likely with PI? That would be interesting -- but could you say more?

[Leon]

I have had and enjoyed the Ab Koster recording of the Mozart horn quartets and just recently discovered his Haydn disc of natural horn works, recorded with the L'Archibudelli ensemble, a group that has yet to disappoint me.

A very enjoyable listen.

Haydn: The Natural Horn

Performer: Ab Koster, L'Archibudelli
Composer: Franz Josef Haydn
Audio CD (December 10, 1996)
Number of Discs: 1
Label: Sony

[asin]B000002BZN[/asin]

[Gurn Blanston]

I have had and enjoyed the Ab Koster recording of the Mozart horn quartets and just recently discovered his Haydn disc of natural horn works, recorded with the L'Archibudelli ensemble, a group that has yet to disappoint me.

A very enjoyable listen.

Haydn: The Natural Horn

Performer: Ab Koster, L'Archibudelli
Composer: Franz Josef Haydn
Audio CD (December 10, 1996)
Number of Discs: 1
Label: Sony

[asin]B000002BZN[/asin]

That's one of my very favorite Haydn disks, and an all-time great horn disk anyway. Haydn was blessed to have 4 of the finest hornists in Europe in the early 1760's, and he took full advantage of having them there, writing some of the most difficult pieces for horn ever. This is a disk everyone should have!