Haydn's Haus

[Elgarian]

In the symphony realm, we come upon the first famous ones, #6, 7 & 8, often called "Morning, Noon & Night Symphonies", and it's true, they do constitute a set. It is believed that Haydn wrote them at the suggestion of Prince Paul. They are chock-full  of beauties, many of them coming in the way of concertante solo writing for the several virtuosi in the orchestra. And tone painting (a sunrise, for example, along the lines he would use for the rest of his career, including the beautiful Op 76 "Sunrise" quartet, and in The Creation). I like this version by Concilium Musicum Wien, although there are many from which to choose.

I found some interesting musical psychology going on here, when I listened to these (in the Goodman versions). The very fact that they have those 'time of day' references attached to them changes the way I listen, and pushes all notions of 'pure music' out of my head (assuming there were any there in the first place). The label gives me a head start, as it were, and immediately I get to work conjuring up visual images to accompany the way the music unfolds. The result is that the playing field isn't level: I felt that I was 'getting more out of' 6, 7, and 8, and maybe that's partly because he upped his musical game as you say, Gurn. But I can't help suspecting that it also has something to do with my own expectations, and the way my brain flips into 'dreaming' mode too easily, when given a bit of a nudge.

I suppose they would still stand out if they didn't have those titles attached to them?

[chasmaniac]

From the Haydn list:

Baguer's Symphony #16 in G major (from the Contemporaries of Mozart Series on Chandos). The 4th movement is note for note identical to Haydn's Hob. 01:69 in C major ('Laudon'). It isn't strictly a mis-attribution, Baguer was a huge fan of Haydn and he simply appropriated the Rondo: Presto finale to close out his own symphony. Listen to them side by side and you will see what I mean.

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

[chasmaniac]

Someone sell me on the big baryton set from Brilliant. It's making me itch.

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[mc ukrneal]

From the Haydn list:

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

They are quite similar. In the main melody, in Haydn, the last note is the same as the previous. In the Baguer, the note is lower. So there is this one big difference in the main melody. There also seem to be differences in instrumentation. For example, the Haydn starts with just a couple strings playing the main theme (with the rest of the orchestra coming in later), but the Baguer has it start orchestral from the beginning. There are probably many more small differences, but I don't have the scores of either to really give you the full scoop.

[Gurn Blanston]

From the Haydn list:

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

Note for note. Grillparzer is a genius, he wouldn't screw that up. 0:)  Well, if you sit and listen to them one after the other, you couldn't tell which was which, I don't think.

[chasmaniac]

Seeking opinions on these too:

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I thought the Eisenstadt trio handled the folksongs very well.

[Gurn Blanston]

Seeking opinions on these too:

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I thought the Eisenstadt trio handled the folksongs very well.

The Oort is very good. I am pleased to have it. The Eisenstadt Trio is undoubtedly fine, Sonic Dave speaks very highly of them, but I have other versions (PI) that I really like so I haven't spent enough time with them to pass judgment.

[Gurn Blanston]

Someone sell me on the big baryton set from Brilliant. It's making me itch.

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Would I be doing you a favor if I did that? Not sure. It is beautiful music, but generally somber (well, baryton, viola, cello; what else could it be?). IMHO, if you wanted a few disks of baryton trios in order to get a good feel for it, that would be all you need to be happy. I got by for a long time with the 2 Hsu disks on ASV / Gaudeamus, for example, along with this one;

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It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

OTOH....

[mc ukrneal]

Note for note. Grillparzer is a genius, he wouldn't screw that up. 0:)  Well, if you sit and listen to them one after the other, you couldn't tell which was which, I don't think.

But they don't sound note for note as I mentioned in my comments. Are you saying it is note for note or using someone else's comment on that?

[chasmaniac]

It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

OTOH....

I've made do with this one for a long time:



Looking for more, and at Brilliant's ridiculous price... 

[Karl Henning]

. . . IMHO, if you wanted a few disks of baryton trios in order to get a good feel for it, that would be all you need to be happy. I got by for a long time with the 2 Hsu disks on ASV / Gaudeamus, for example, along with this one;


It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

Thanks for this, O Gurn.

[Gurn Blanston]

But they don't sound note for note as I mentioned in my comments. Are you saying it is note for note or using someone else's comment on that?

No, I just played them one after the other and they sounded identical to me (except that the Baguer didn't use the repeat and the Harnoncourt/Haydn did). I certainly don't have a score for the Baguer! It would be more than a little misleading to say that one didn't copy from the other simply because there were a few notes different. A very few notes! It is one thing to say "he used the Haydn as a model", and quite another to admit that he copied it nearly identically. In a different day and age, there would have been lawsuits over it. Back then, it was standard practice and above reproach.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've made do with this one for a long time:



Looking for more, and at Brilliant's ridiculous price... 

No, don't let me out you off that. The box is wonderful. I was simply pointing out that if you have assessed your needs vis-a-vis baryton music and decided that you need it all, then you can't do better than this. The playing is excellent, and it really is complete!

[mc ukrneal]

No, I just played them one after the other and they sounded identical to me (except that the Baguer didn't use the repeat and the Harnoncourt/Haydn did). I certainly don't have a score for the Baguer! It would be more than a little misleading to say that one didn't copy from the other simply because there were a few notes different. A very few notes! It is one thing to say "he used the Haydn as a model", and quite another to admit that he copied it nearly identically. In a different day and age, there would have been lawsuits over it. Back then, it was standard practice and above reproach.

Ok. I guess we are saying the same thing, but pehaps I am trying to be too precise. I will say that I think some notes are more important than others, but I guess you knew that too!

[kishnevi]

The Oort is very good. I am pleased to have it.

I have le Brautigam integrale.  How does Oort compare to him?  I have and like very much Oort's complete Mozart set.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have le Brautigam integrale.  How does Oort compare to him?  I have and like very much Oort's complete Mozart set.

To my ear, he is a bit less aggressive than Brautigam, although it seems like pretty much everyone else is too.   I agree about the Oort Mozart, I think if you like one you will like the other too. Much the same attack, so to speak. If you find Brautigam to be just too much (I can see where some people would; I do sometimes), then Oort should be just right.



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Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson - Hob 16_50 Sonata in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 11 - 1762

1762 showed the advantages of working for a large and wealthy family. Like a corporation, it continued on unabated when, in March, Prince Paul died suddenly. His heir, Nicholas, was an even greater patron of musical arts than Paul. Haydn had recently signed his famous contract, the one listing the amazing number of duties, and allowable behaviors, and above all, basically stating in advance that all of his music belonged to the Prince. Despite the fact that to our sensibilities this sounds onerous, Haydn was lucky to have such security, and he was well aware of it. Compared to his life in Vienna just a few short years before, this was amazing good fortune, and he made the most of it.

Here, then, is the music of 1762;

Hob 01_009 Symphony in C
Hob 01_014 Symphony in A   
        The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_033 Symphony in C
Hob 01_036 Symphony in Eb   
Hob 01_108 Symphony in Bb   
        Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood


Hob 07d_03 Concerto in D for Horn & 2 Oboes
   L'Archibudelli / Koster


Hob 28_01 Opera "Acide"
   Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien


Pretty slim pickings, seems like, but one can only guess how much he had on his plate that first full year! And really, he has already spoiled us, to where a mere 5 symphonies and a concerto and an opera seem like he must be a layabout!   And the opera wasn't even performed in 1762, instead it was held until the following year, where it was played at the Prince's wedding celebration. Note also that there is, as yet, no sacred music. According to his contract, sacred music was the purview of old Werner as long as he could handle it. Which he did, with a zest that belied his age. The horn concerto, which is the one that we call "#1", is a nice vehicle for showing off the talents of the superb hornists who worked for the Esterhazy orchestra. There are rather few really nice versions of it, I think this one by L'Archibudelli / Koster is top shelf.

Please feel free to comment and expand on what I have presented here, which is barely enough, I know, to keep you in touch with how the music and the life are progressing.



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Now playing:
Anne Cambier (Soprano) \ Jan Vermeulen (Fortepiano) - Hob 26a_17 Lied für das Clavier 'Geistliches Lied'

[Opus106]

Haydn had recently signed his famous contract, the one listing the amazing number of duties, and allowable behaviors, and above all, basically stating in advance that all of his music belonged to the Prince.

I believe the exact wording in the contract was "All your Hob are belong to us."

[Elgarian]

Wanting to hear more of that light and airy Haydn Happiness on organ, I gave in before the end of the month and bought one of these:



I can't keep up with the pace of proceedings, but I'll be hovering at the back of the pack, gathering up some of the gems scattered in your wake....

[Gurn Blanston]

I believe the exact wording in the contract was "All your Hob are belong to us."

Yes, translated from the Hungarian.

Wanting to hear more of that light and airy Haydn Happiness on organ, I gave in before the end of the month and bought one of these:



I can't keep up with the pace of proceedings, but I'll be hovering at the back of the pack, gathering up some of the gems scattered in your wake....

Ah, you'll be pleased.   Anyway, I had several years to gather this stuff together, it was easier that way. Feel free though to stop me at any time and discuss. That is my aim, after all.