Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

But surely you've noticed that in the 18th century, among educated Euros, using 2 or even 3 or more languages in a single sentence is not only routine, but even de rigeur! I laugh too, but there it is. I actually copied the phrase out of a book...   (not saying you aren't 100% correct, of course...)  0:)

Gurn - LOL!    When I was last in Italy (1996 and having some Spanish in college and using an Italian language guide book - lots of similarities), I was trying to converse 'a little' and one of the young female secretaries (this was a medical meeting in Bologna) who was Portuguese, said jokingly that I was using Spanish & Italian in 'trying' to converse - BOY, now I feel so HIP!     Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 16

1767
The Big Boss! One thinks it must have been an amazing thing for this son of a wheelwright from rural Austria to suddenly be the leader of one of the finest orchestras in Europe. If he did, beyond a sense of internal satisfaction, Haydn didn't show it. He came to work every day, went down the huge list of tasks, then went home and practiced and learned. However, the satisfaction probably came in other ways. Having this shiny new orchestra to drive every day, he put his foot on the innovation pedal, tried out new things, went places that hadn't been explored yet and exercised his creative genius.

The symphonies were starting to get more depth, as he began to break loose from the galant simplicity which used to dominate his style. Not storm and stress, not yet, but still, not the typical expanded Italian overture any longer either. Baryton for the Boss was still the order of the day though.

The music of 1767:

Hob 01_035 Symphony in Bb   
Hob 01_038 Symphony in C   
Hob 01_058 Symphony in F
   L'Estro Armonico / Solomons


Hob 04_05  Divertimento à Tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello
   L'Archibudelli / Koster


Hob 10_07 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello   

Hob 11_031 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_032 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_033 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_034 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_035 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_036 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_037 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_038 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_039 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_040 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_041 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_042 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_043 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_044 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_045 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_046 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_047 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_048 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_049 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_050 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_051 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
   Esterhazy Ensemble


Hob 15_39 5 Trio arrangements for Keyboard & Strings
   Van Swieten Trio


Hob 16_12 Sonata #12 in A for Clavichord
   Yuko Wataya
Hob 16_19 Sonata #30 in D for Clavichord
   Carole Cerasi


Hob 20bis Stabat mater for Solo Voices, Chorus & Orchestra
   The English Concert & Choir / Pinnock  Rozario / Robbin / Johnson / Hauptmann


OK, lots of baryton, no doubt. But if you've been following along, you can see the expansion of his powers even in this demarcated format. Among the trios, #39 in D is a standout. And we are almost to the halfway point, starting the third big volume. With so many works, it is almost impossible to pick out high spots. I can more easily relate to people who get bogged down in the symphonies now.

Speaking of which, we have three nice ones at hand. Some collections (like this L'Estro Armonico set) count these among the Stürm und Dräng and others don't. It's true, they are all major key, but like his other works, they are beginning to show the signs of Empfindsankeit that would lead to the emotion of S & D in a very short while.

And Hob IV:5, a splendid little chamber piece for Horn, Violin & Cello. It's a pity that time is such a barrier, I would love to hear the players he had versus our best hornists of today, like Koster or Halstead. Certainly their talents were sufficient to drive him to heights of composition.

The Hob 15_39 5 Trio arrangements in F for Keyboard & Strings are called "Trio #4" by Landon, but it is doubtful that they were ever parts of a single musical work. They are triostücke possibly written for a reason, maybe not. In any case, they are the only trio works in the time period from 1758 to 1772. A pleasant listening choice, though it seems the Van Sweiten's are the only option for them (no problem there though).

The Stabat Mater had an historically much larger part to play in Haydn's career than even he realized. It was his first big sacred music in quite a long time, since with the death the previous year of Werner, Haydn now had that to do also. It is a very substantial work, styled on the Neapolitan oratorio. The work achieved the highest praise from composers of 'big music' like Hasse, for example, who wrote a letter of lavish praise after Haydn had sent him a copy asking for suggestions for improvement. But the real bonus came down the road. In whatever manner, the score ended up in France where it was received with the highest possible regard. It was praised unanimously as the best Stabat Mater since Pergolesi's. The net result of that was that it became an annual event at the Concert spirituel during the 1770's and '80's, which led to his symphonies being sought out and played heavily, and then the commission for the Paris Symphonies. By that time, he was one of the most popular composers (judging by concert performances and score sales), and hadn't really even made an effort to be.

In any case, there is a brief overview. I hope you have already several of these works to listen to, and will share your ideas about them.



----------------
Now playing:
  Gudrun Dengler (Cembalo) - Hob 17_01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard on 'Acht Sauschneider müssen seyn'

[kishnevi]

Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included.  So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously.  Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

[Elgarian]

Well, I'll get in step alongside you, Alan.  Part of my weekend was spent transferring 80% of this box to my mp3 player. (I probably listened to the first three discs back when the box first came in.)

And now, to target these trios whereof the Gurnatron speaks so highly . . . .

Well that's good company to be in.

I made a small start, listening to the flute trios on CD6 (nos. 15, 16), and then went back to no.5 on CD1. To be honest, I don't think I'm familiar enough with them (or indeed, perhaps fundamentally not sensitive enough, or maybe not critical enough) to be able to distinguish their superiority over the others. For 15/16 I was hampered by finding the flute a bit shrill - so musical considerations tended to fade a bit as time went on, and I didn't go on to listen to 17 (on the same disc). And 5 (my second listening to it) was lovely, but then so were all the others on that first CD. So I think in the first instance, until I get further up the learning curve, I'll go back to my scattergun approach of snaffling chocolates from the box,* regardless of where they come from.

(That said, I may never learn any better. I'm still in the position of melting helplessly in response to Mozart's 13th PC, even though the rest of the world tells me it's totally undistinguished and to be dismissed!)


*I'll let the absurdly mixed metaphor stand. I don't think one can snaffle anything (implying a taking-in) with a scattergun approach (implying a giving-out).

[chasmaniac]

Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included.  So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously.  Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

I love those Goodmans, but, alas!, there are only 17 of them. You'll have them all.

[Gurn Blanston]

Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included.  So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously.  Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

No, actually, that IS the full run! They also did 2 disks on the Nimbus label, the one I rec'd the other day with #31 and the horn concertos by Joseph  and Michael, and then the 2nd has #100 & 104 (I think). SO yeah, you're all good, Congratulations!

[Gurn Blanston]

Well that's good company to be in.

I made a small start, listening to the flute trios on CD6 (nos. 15, 16), and then went back to no.5 on CD1. To be honest, I don't think I'm familiar enough with them (or indeed, perhaps fundamentally not sensitive enough, or maybe not critical enough) to be able to distinguish their superiority over the others. For 15/16 I was hampered by finding the flute a bit shrill - so musical considerations tended to fade a bit as time went on, and I didn't go on to listen to 17 (on the same disc). And 5 (my second listening to it) was lovely, but then so were all the others on that first CD. So I think in the first instance, until I get further up the learning curve, I'll go back to my scattergun approach of snaffling chocolates from the box,* regardless of where they come from.

(That said, I may never learn any better. I'm still in the position of melting helplessly in response to Mozart's 13th PC, even though the rest of the world tells me it's totally undistinguished and to be dismissed!)


*I'll let the absurdly mixed metaphor stand. I don't think one can snaffle anything (implying a taking-in) with a scattergun approach (implying a giving-out).

Sounds like a mixed bag for you there, Alan. I've always had to work hard to love the flute when it's prominent. That is one of the reasons that I like PI sound, since metal flutes are even more shrill than wooden ones. In truth, I haven't listened to that particular performance, having an abundance of riches for those works. My current favorite are the La Gaia Scienza disk that we looked at recently.

One thing about the trios is that their numbering is among the most bizarre of all the groups. Do have a care when looking for #5. I am talking about Hoboken 5, which is going to be #18. Whereas #5 is actually Hoboken 1 from 1757. All very confusing, but not my fault. I am here solely to serve.

[Karl Henning]

Gurn, I had no idea!  And actually, I'll take this tangent elsewhere . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I had no idea!  And actually, I'll take this tangent elsewhere . . . .

About what, Karl?

[Karl Henning]

About what, Karl?

About the flute.

[Gurn Blanston]

About the flute.

Yup, figured it out eventually and posted in your own. Well, stands to reason, if one has a favorite instrument, then there must be an equal and opposite, eh? 

[Karl Henning]

. . . Well, stands to reason, if one has a favorite instrument, then there must be an equal and opposite, eh? 

A fallacy! Hah! : )

[Leon]

Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included.  So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously.  Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

Thanks for this; I just added my missing items.  I think Goodman's set is near the top of my list, mainly because I enjoy the continuo which seems to add a nice brittleness to the overall sound which I find pleasing.  This is not to say that my Hogwood, or the partial sets of Weil or Minkowski are shoddy, just that after hearing the addition of the harpsichord - I really liked it.

Of course, I wish he had finished the cycle, especially I miss the ones numbered 26-41.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for this; I just added my missing items.  I think Goodman's set is near the top of my list, mainly because I enjoy the continuo which seems to add a nice brittleness to the overall sound which I find pleasing.  This is not to say that my Hogwood, or the partial sets of Weil or Minkowski are shoddy, just that after hearing the addition of the harpsichord - I really liked it.

Of course, I wish he had finished the cycle, especially I miss the ones numbered 26-41.

And I, the ones numbered 79-81...

[Opus106]

Year	Landon	Hob. XV	Key	Instruments	Notes
1757	1	37	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	2	C1	C	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	3		G	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello	Was Hoboken 14:6 but 1st violin part is missing
1757	4	39	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	5	1	g	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	6	40	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	7	41	G	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	10	35	A	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	11	34	E	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1760	12	36	Eb	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	13	38	Bb	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1760	14	f1	f	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
?	15	deest	D	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1767	16		C	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello	Was Hob 14:C1 - Believed that 1st Violin part is lost, so was originally a div a 4, now a trio
1772	17	2	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1784	18	5	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1784	19	6	F	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	20	7	D	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	21	8	Bb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	22	9	A	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	23	10	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1788	24	11	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1788	25	12	e	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1789	26	13	c	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1789	27	14	Ab	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1790	28	16	D	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790	29	15	G	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790	30	17	F	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1794	31	32	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Also published in Vienna as a violin sonata
1793	32	18	A	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1793	33	19	g	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1793	34	20	Bb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1794	35	21	C	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1794	36	22	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1794	37	23	d	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1795	38	24	D	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	39	25	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	40	26	f#	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	41	31	eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1796	42	30	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1796	43	27	C	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen
1796	44	28	E	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen
1796	45	29	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen

[Opus106]

I did not tamper with the data except for marking the unknown year with one question mark instead of four and changing the column headers slightly. Please let me know if you find anything out of place.

[Gurn Blanston]

I did not tamper with the data except for marking the unknown year with one question mark instead of four and changing the column headers slightly. Please let me know if you find anything out of place.

Ah, splendid! You da man! 

Whenever I try to line stuff up like that, it looks like an earthquake hit it.

[Opus106]

Whenever I try to line stuff up like that, it looks like an earthquake hit it.

That's why I let the computer do it for me.

[Gurn Blanston]

That's why I let the computer do it for me.

Ah, wise guy man!


I'm hoping that amid all this other discussion, last night's update on 1767 didn't go unnoticed. Lots of music there, which many of you have mentioned the Stabat Mater for example....

1767

[Elgarian]

One thing about the trios is that their numbering is among the most bizarre of all the groups. Do have a care when looking for #5. I am talking about Hoboken 5, which is going to be #18. Whereas #5 is actually Hoboken 1 from 1757. All very confusing, but not my fault. I am here solely to serve.

Well, I think I understand this (in the sense that I think I understand elementary quantum mechanics, the philosophy of David Hume, and the various ways to catch a boojum) but I shall inspect the box and the booklet and go through Navneeth's's list with them in hand (thanks Navneeth - that surely is service beyond the call of duty), to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

Phew.