Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, and a great job as usual, Gurn.

This may have been brought up before on this thread, I might have missed it. But why were pieces such as Symphony #48 and #65 written in the same year, but numbered so far apart?

Thanks, Greg, glad you liked it.

The symphonies were first numbered in their current order way back in 1907 by Mandyczewski. Despite the fact that before him, there were as many as 185 symphonies attributed to Haydn, he performed the amazing feat of compiling a list from which none have been removed and only 2 added (Symphony A & B (107 & 108), and the previously mentioned #106 which turns out to have been the overture to Le Pescatrici. However, one thing he didn't accomplish was to get them in proper order. Too much to ask, I guess. And so Hoboken adopted the list entire, and it awaited Robbins-Landon to actually get a proper chronology. But by then, the numbers were written in stone and there was no changing them. If you are a Mozart fan, you are familiar with this same phenomenon when you look at Köchel numbers and see that people, after all these years, are still using the K1 numbers when in fact the K6 numbers, which are 50 years old already, are much closer but still totally obsolete. Inertia, my friend, simply inertia. Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness.



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Now playing:

  Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_21 Quartet in G for Strings Op. 9 #3 1st mvmt - Moderato

[Karl Henning]

. . . Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness.

On behalf of the musical world: ouch! : )

Logistics of re-organization play into it, too.  Not to defend the inertia, mind.

[jlaurson]

Inertia, my friend, simply inertia. Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness.

on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or  Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

[mc ukrneal]

on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or  Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself.  The only thing it reminded me of is Rossini. Who I suppose could be called a 'fat cat'.  Hmmm, how'd we get back there?!?!?

The other problem with 'the cat' - it's already been used in a Cary Grant movie. I think of that first. So maybe some alternatives:
- Primo Cato (umm, errr, sorry Cato)
- Caticus Prime (err, a bad Transformer movie?)
- Hid'en cat (haha)
- The nine lives symphony (you know - two nines; I rather like this one)
- Or here's one you'll never guess - The cat!

A catty email, I know, but that's what happens when you listen to #99 I guess.    What were we talking about again??...

[jlaurson]

I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself.  The only thing it reminded me of is Rossini. Who I suppose could be called a 'fat cat'.  Hmmm, how'd we get back there?!?!?

Listening to Norrington right now. With SOME imagination I've come across a cat or two... but perhaps Sarge could pinpoint a recording / occurrence that meows particularly cattishly to him?

[Sergeant Rock]

I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself.

It's none of those things: it's a gentle "meow" --the second subject. What performance did you listen to? If I have it I can give you the time it first appears.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Listening to Norrington right now. With SOME imagination I've come across a cat or two... but perhaps Sarge could pinpoint a recording / occurrence that meows particularly cattishly to him?

Hang on...I'll spin Norrington now and get back to you.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

Dang, and here I've left my Szell box-let at home . . . .

[chasmaniac]

First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

Now that's the cat's meow!

[jlaurson]

First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

We don't have the same cat.

But fair enough... now my goal is not only to instigate nicknaming the symphony (my Wiki additions were already called into quesiton and removed  ) but to get a conductor to REALLY "mkkkgnnnnaw" on that phrase.

[Sergeant Rock]

Dang, and here I've left my Szell box-let at home . . . .

Well, when you get back home, check it out. First appearance of the meow in the Szell recording is at 3:15.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Now that's the cat's meow!

[Sergeant Rock]

We don't have the same cat.

Either that or you don't have an imagination    Or maybe German cat's have a different accent. I hear an American feline 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Cool for Cleveland cats!

[jlaurson]

Either that or you don't have an imagination    Or maybe German cat's have a different accent. I hear an American feline 

Sarge

The cats in my limited imagination all sing 'downward' or else employ strong portamento on upward swoops...
But since I am strongly bi-continental, as far as pussies are concerned, I don't think it's a regional issue.

[mc ukrneal]

It's none of those things: it's a gentle "meow" --the second subject. What performance did you listen to? If I have it I can give you the time it first appears.

Sarge

I have Fischer or Davis.

[Karl Henning]

I stalled somewhere in the 50s* with my Haydn symphony survey. The Haus may just spur me to organize sufficiently to get that train rolling again.

(* Meaning the symphonies numbered in the 50s, not the listener's age.)

[Sergeant Rock]

I have Fischer or Davis.

Sir Colin's with the Concertgebouw from 1975? If so the first appearance of the meow is at 3:24/25 but it makes an even stronger impact with the change in orchestration at 7:34. The only problem with the timings is that I have the Pentatone CD not the original Philips. If one or the other companies added a bit a silence to the beginning, the timings may be slightly off. But you should be able to recognize when the second subject begins. It's pretty obvious. Whether you'll hear the meows....well, like Jens said, depends on your imagination 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or  Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

I scarcely ever use nicknames, even when they are well-established. An exception would be if the composer actually named it. And you do know that Sarge is a bit... off, don't you? In any case, if someone were to have a 'catty' work, it would surely be Mozart, who loved to meow and actually used meowing in more than one of his little songs (Like Bona nox). That said, I will happily support the use of NC101 for the Symphony in Eb of 1794! That's good thinking.