Haydn's Haus

[Bogey]

I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic.

Well, if you embrace the Jesuit roads of working on one's "downward mobility" and that "time" is not ours then it becomes more manageable.  For the record, I have been trying to embrace these two paths myself.   

[Leon]

Re: Baryton Trios

For myself, I went all-in with the Brilliant set, precisely because I did not know anything about the instrument or the works themselves.  The price was cheap enough for the 18? disks, and now that I have them all (or, at least, the majority of these works) I can sample them as I choose, and go through them seeking out distinctions to be made, favorites to discover, etc.

I just know that had I bought a single disk I would end up wanting to hear them all at some point, so I just went to my logical destination at the start of the journey.



Oh, and I have not regretted having so many of these wonderful works - not one bit.

[Gurn Blanston]

^^ no, that looks like a great place to start. I was looking at the Penguin Guide, who principally recommend the Hsu, Miller & Arico disks on ASV... which I'm guessing have been out a long time, and possibly harder to get hold of now, because they are hardly budget price.  I guess my initial thoughts were led by Sid's review on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Complete-Baryton-Esterhazy-Ensemble/dp/B001P4KG1S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324577194&sr=1-1

where he discusses the ranking of this output and the merits (or otherwise) of jumping in for the whole set.

of course, I have heard of the instrument, and knew vaguely what it was... but the fact that it was such a sizeable portion of JH's output had completely eluded me.. 

Hsu, Miller & Arico are still available, but not readily. They were my first baryton disks, along with Hsu's one on Dorian. However, I can say this with easy conscience; the one I rec'd you is better. Balestracci is a virtuoso on the baryton, beyond question. This disk will show you more of the potential in the music than any other, and that (to me) is because they have learned from those who went before. The truth is, I don't recommend jumping in for the whole set unless you are one of those... (those such as I, that is) who must have all of it. No need, really. A few good disks are all you need.

Yes, 126 works is a large part of anyone's output, I suspect.   Instead of getting all the trios, consider instead getting the octets to go with a few of the trios. I did that at the first and was delighted with the results. Try these, for example or one of the others listed in my 1775 essay:



Good music, and you will be forming your own opinion about it.

[Leo K.]

Listening to Symphony no.47 in G, The "Palindrome" for the first time and WOW  I believe this is a "Sturm und Drang" work. The orchestration is refined, and the modulation very moving.

[jlaurson]

"Ilse von Alpenheim has recorded all the Haydn piano sonatas, concertini and concerti."


REALLY? What label (if any) was that for?

[Gurn Blanston]

"Ilse von Alpenheim has recorded all the Haydn piano sonatas, concertini and concerti."


REALLY? What label (if any) was that for?

I have the Concerti etc. in a Vox Box. I think there are just a couple of the sonatas in there. Maybe another Vox Box?



EDIT: It was with the Bamberg SO / Dorati

[Jared]

Hsu, Miller & Arico are still available, but not readily. They were my first baryton disks, along with Hsu's one on Dorian. However, I can say this with easy conscience; the one I rec'd you is better. Balestracci is a virtuoso on the baryton, beyond question. This disk will show you more of the potential in the music than any other, and that (to me) is because they have learned from those who went before. The truth is, I don't recommend jumping in for the whole set unless you are one of those... (those such as I, that is) who must have all of it. No need, really. A few good disks are all you need.

Yes, 126 works is a large part of anyone's output, I suspect.   Instead of getting all the trios, consider instead getting the octets to go with a few of the trios. I did that at the first and was delighted with the results. Try these, for example or one of the others listed in my 1775 essay:[/img]

Good music, and you will be forming your own opinion about it.

Thanks Gurn... that's a very helpful post, and is something I shall be looking to during 2012. My shelf of music to be heard is stacked high at present... but by pure coincidence, the next disk I shall be playing (again) is one I believe you recommended recently:



and as they say.. Rome wasn't built in a day...

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks Gurn... that's a very helpful post, and is something I shall be looking to during 2012. My shelf of music to be heard is stacked high at present... but by pure coincidence, the next disk I shall be playing (again) is one I believe you recommended recently:



and as they say.. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Yes, that's the prudent approach. No point in glutting yourself, take time to enjoy; that's what it's all about after all. Something that isn't so readily apparent during these discussions is that I have been acquiring my Haydn collection for well over 10 years. It went from a pleasant sideline into a main focus about 3 years ago, so that's still a lot of time, nothing overnight.

I did not actually rec that disk, although I would have, given the performers. It came up during our Stabat Mater discussion though, and I find it intriguing enough to have a look soon. Right now, I still have the Rebel Baroque Orchestra sitting in my "to listen" pile...



----------------
Now playing:


Freiburger Barockorchester, Gottfried von der Goltz - Hob 01_080 Symphony in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

[Jared]

^^ yes, I sorry for the error... I have only really gotten around to Haydn seriously this year; before that my knowledge had been restricted to later symphs, Creation and the better known concertos.  This year has seen an excursion of all Masses, all Piano Trios, SM, Seasons, 7 Last Words (SQ & Choral), all remaining concertos (except the ones for horn) with his Piano Sonatas looking at me from the shelf.  I've scarcely heard a below average piece yet... 

[Gurn Blanston]

^^ yes, I sorry for the error... I have only really gotten around to Haydn seriously this year; before that my knowledge had been restricted to later symphs, Creation and the better known concertos.  This year has seen an excursion of all Masses, all Piano Trios, SM, Seasons, 7 Last Words (SQ & Choral), all remaining concertos (except the ones for horn) with his Piano Sonatas looking at me from the shelf.  I've scarcely heard a below average piece yet... 

Oh please, don't be. It is as nothing. well, in a year you have made a lot more progress that I did in my first year! I have some of the late symphonies, some of the quartets (the Kodaly version) and the Ax sonata disk and concertos disk. And I was feeling pretty good about that! But the key thing is in you final sentence; you really won't hear much below average in Haydn. His average is so very high, that is the measure of his quality!   

[Jared]

I did not actually rec that disk, although I would have, given the performers. It came up during our Stabat Mater discussion though, and I find it intriguing enough to have a look soon.

What I find intriguing is how this piece managed to find its way 'out of fashion' for such a long time... even now, there are only really a small handful of recordings available, and I have to say it really is quite wonderful. Pinnock's recording (and yes, I realise he's not to everyone's taste) did a wonderful job in bringing the piece to a wider audience 20 years ago... and it really does stand up to repeated listens, rather than being the poor relation of Haydn's Choral Works...

[Gurn Blanston]

What I find intriguing is how this piece managed to find its way 'out of fashion' for such a long time... even now, there are only really a small handful of recordings available, and I have to say it really is quite wonderful. Pinnock's recording (and yes, I realise he's not to everyone's taste) did a wonderful job in bringing the piece to a wider audience 20 years ago... and it really does stand up to repeated listens, rather than being the poor relation of Haydn's Choral Works...

In its own time it was widely hailed. Even the Protestant churches in Western Europe used it regularly. And as I brought up in the discussion, it was the one piece that made Haydn virtually a household name in France. But I think the fact is that big Church works, aside from some masses, just seemed to go out of fashion for a very long time. It is hard for me to hear this as a concert piece, so maybe the fact that it wasn't being played in church, and it was really a concert piece, combined to relegate it into relative obscurity. That is merely speculation on my part though.

I've been very satisfied with Pinnock's version for a long time. If you like it, don't listen to the naysayers.

[Jared]

I've been very satisfied with Pinnock's version for a long time. If you like it, don't listen to the naysayers.

You clearly have a better memory than me about what you've told me in the past!   

I'm quite a fan of Trevor Pinnock on the whole... sometimes his works can be a *little* austere, and it's always good to have a 2nd version of a work when you buy a Pinnock version, but on the whole I rate him quite highly..   

[Gurn Blanston]

You clearly have a better memory than me about what you've told me in the past!   

I'm quite a fan of Trevor Pinnock on the whole... sometimes his works can be a *little* austere, and it's always good to have a 2nd version of a work when you buy a Pinnock version, but on the whole I rate him quite highly..   

I may well have said that I am aware that there are people out there who don't like Pinnock. However, I am not one of them, I merely acknowledge that there are opposing points of view. The Festetics are another example; their jollity is not to everyone's taste. But I like Pinnock a lot too. I think he is one of the finest harpsichordists on record, to start with. And I think he was rather a bold pioneer in HIP back in its beginnings. I have all of his Haydn recordings and am pleased to do.

[Jared]

I have all of his Haydn recordings and am pleased to do.

I'm not sure how many specifically Haydn disks he has released, but I think I own (and love) four:

[Jared]

^^ hmmm.. I've just dug out my 'Third Ear Guide' (I'm guessing you're American and you'll therefore automatically own one of these??) which says:

"Once all but unknown, Stabat Mater now has several fine recordings and is no longer dismissed as second-rate Haydn. Like Rossini's SM, it's not invariably solemn, but the writing for the four soloists is so inventive you'll come away humming the tunes".

well, someone knows what they're talking about... it does however suggest that the piece was thought of at least in some quarters as '2nd Rate'... a thought I find quite intriguing... 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, these too;



which are re-released in a box set that I don't have. Also his very first disk of Symphonies 6, 7 & 8 which I read so many bad reviews of that I gave it a miss. Don't do that often, but there it is.  

[Jared]

^^ oh goodness me, I completely forgot his 'S&D' Symph boxset...  it's presently residing in my Amazon inbox as we type... 

[Gurn Blanston]

^^ hmmm.. I've just dug out my 'Third Ear Guide' (I'm guessing you're American and you'll therefore automatically own one of these??) which says:

"Once all but unknown, Stabat Mater now has several fine recordings and is no longer dismissed as second-rate Haydn. Like Rossini's SM, it's not invariably solemn, but the writing for the four soloists is so inventive you'll come away humming the tunes".

well, someone knows what they're talking about... it does however suggest that the piece was thought of at least in some quarters as '2nd Rate'... a thought I find quite intriguing... 

No, no guides for me, I am strictly 'seat of the pants'. Well, dismissal like that can have come at some time, certainly. In the 19th century, 99% of Haydn's output was dismissed for one reason or another. But if it was lauded in its own time (which it was) and recognized in our time (which it is), then one needs to question the motives of the 'dismissers'. My personal opinion, which is based on reading a lot of that stuff, is that there were very few, I stress the very, critics who didn't have an ax to grind against nearly every composer they wrote about. Keep in mind, until the 1920's, from 1830 or so, and with the exception of a few operas and the minor key piano concertos and symphonies, Mozart was considered to be rococo garbage, by and large. I personally find the opinions of the 19th century to be strictly trash.

[Elgarian]

Well, I don't know if you are different in that aspect from the "normal" classical music aficionado. Even I, who am out of the closet, so to speak, as being a Classicist all the way, get a nice thrill from listening to some of my favorite Romantics, like Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and especially Dvorak. It isn't as though I would dive into them the way I have Haydn, but it is damned fine music, and only a deaf man or a cretin would fail to hear it. But as a long term interest, I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic. If I was to research and study every composer that I really do like (let's narrow it down to those for the sake of argument), I would be long dead before I got half through the list. So I have just 4, and I will be lucky to learn them before I depart this mortal coil.

You're right of course, although my progress has been largely one of observing certain barriers come down, for no apparent reason, at various intervals through my life. I would have gambled serious money, even up to a couple of years ago, against the possibility of Haydn becoming a favourite composer of mine. I'm afraid you have to shoulder a substantial part of the responsibility for that sea-change, Gurn.

But our approaches are different. I was a scholar almost from birth, I think - but decidedly in other fields, and never a music scholar. Where music is concerned I really only live for kicks. I do read music books, but (Elgar excepted) not in any systematic sense. I dip according to whim, or to what I happen to be listening to. So I don't really feel a pressure to settle on a particular period or composer. Even so ... I now have so much Haydn that I keep the Haydn collection separately, in a big box, and I probably now have more Haydn CDs than Elgar CDs. Well, maybe not. But it's a close run thing.