Haydn's Haus

[Leo K.]

You all make this the best place on the internet  Great posts here, truly engaging and fun too.

[Gurn Blanston]

You all make this the best place on the internet  Great posts here, truly engaging and fun too.

Merci, mon ami. And you help.

Vedi Napoli Garter Haydn e poi mori!...

  I smell an aria coming!

[Florestan]

how damned good were the amateurs of those days?

Speaking of which, here are 3 questions for the knowledgeable music historian in you, dear Gurn.

1. Has Prince Eszterhazy ever suggested Haydn to change this or that score here and there? I suspect that he must have his own ideas about how music should sound.

2. What percentage of Haydn's compositions was dedicated to amateurs?

3. Back then, was it conceivable that one could passionately love music and listen to it without being able to read scores and play at least one instrument?

[Gurn Blanston]

Speaking of which, here are 3 questions for the knowledgeable music historian in you, dear Gurn.

1. Has Prince Eszterhazy ever suggested Haydn to change this or that score here and there? I suspect that he must have his own ideas about how music should sound.

Yes. I haven't looked it up to refresh my memory, although I mentioned it in one of these essays, one from the early 1770's. He told Haydn to strike out a section of a symphony because it was just too much. IIRC, the exact symphony wasn't identified in that anecdote, but it was one of the late S & D's.  I'm sure that wasn't the only instance, but I would be totally amazed if it was standard procedure though.

2. What percentage of Haydn's compositions was dedicated to amateurs?

You say 'dedicated' but I am thinking 'written for'. So there may be some differences in intention.

Nearly all of the solo keyboard works and chamber works. Of the string quartets, the only ones actually composed for professional musicians are Op 71 & 74 which he wrote for Salomon's concerts.

As nearly as I can determine, the works for professionals are all of the orchestral (although probably excluding divertimentos), religious, operatic and large-scale oratorio works. For amateurs are all of the solo keyboard, chamber and divertimenti. Of course, this is a generalization, since any individual work could be an exception. Probably isn't though.

3. Back then, was it conceivable that one could passionately love music and listen to it without being able to read scores and play at least one instrument?

Well, they didn't really have 'scores' in the sense that we use it. They had parts. When a symphony went from X to Y, it was as many sets of parts. IIRC, the first actual published scores are from the early 19th century.

Of course, what you are really asking is 'did you have to be able to read music'. Well, anyone who was a music lover at that time, I'm talking about our music, not folk music and the like, certainly could read music, and likely play an instrument. In that time, there was no 'middle class' as we think of it today. There were certainly wealthy families that weren't part of the nobility (although they would be trying for a patent of nobility as soon as they could afford it), but an absolutely essential part of the education of their children was music. It was a hallmark of culture in that society. I think it is extremely important to keep in mind that there is a huge dividing line on so many levels between what was normal in the 18th century and what was normal after, as a rule of thumb, the Congress of Vienna (1815). It is like 2 different worlds.

[Florestan]

I am thinking 'written for'.

Yes, that's what I meant actually.

Thanks for the reply. I'll come back with comments later.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, that's what I meant actually.

Thanks for the reply. I'll come back with comments later.

Don't threaten me!      

[Elgarian]

Wait til you see MY list of Paris Symphonies....

Ha! That'll be worth waiting for, Gurn.

Just to add to the confusion - for some reason I'm very taken with the legend (I don't know how close to the truth it is) that 'La Reine' is so called because it was Marie Antoinette's favourite. I know this is responsible for the fact that I listen to it twice as often as any other of the Paris symphonies, because I really, really like the idea that the experience I'm having here and now is one that Marie Antoinette shared. So the experience is musical, sure enough; but it's also trans-historical ('then as now') and trans-personal ('she and I').

Of course it's possible to try to separate art from life by attempting to squeeze out this extraneous stuff, and some folks will argue that's the truest and most fruitful road to take towards some pure aesthetic nirvana; which may be so for them, but it's not for me. Neither is it for you, Gurn (if your magnificent series of multifaceted posts is anything to go by).

[Florestan]

Of course it's possible to try to separate art from life by attempting to squeeze out this extraneous stuff, and some folks will argue that's the truest and most fruitful road to take towards some pure aesthetic nirvana; which may be so for them, but it's not for me. Neither is it for you, Gurn (if your magnificent series of multifaceted posts is anything to go by).

Count me out as well. I don't even think it's possible to separate art from life. As Constantin Brâncuşi once said, art means not escaping from reality but entering THE reality.

[Florestan]

Yes. I haven't looked it up to refresh my memory, although I mentioned it in one of these essays, one from the early 1770's. He told Haydn to strike out a section of a symphony because it was just too much. IIRC, the exact symphony wasn't identified in that anecdote, but it was one of the late S & D's.  I'm sure that wasn't the only instance, but I would be totally amazed if it was standard procedure though.

This is exactly what I expected.

For amateurs are all of the solo keyboard, chamber and divertimenti.

That's great. I wonder how many amateurs today can tackle them. 

Of course, what you are really asking is 'did you have to be able to read music'. Well, anyone who was a music lover at that time, I'm talking about our music, not folk music and the like, certainly could read music, and likely play an instrument. In that time, there was no 'middle class' as we think of it today. There were certainly wealthy families that weren't part of the nobility (although they would be trying for a patent of nobility as soon as they could afford it), but an absolutely essential part of the education of their children was music. It was a hallmark of culture in that society. I think it is extremely important to keep in mind that there is a huge dividing line on so many levels between what was normal in the 18th century and what was normal after, as a rule of thumb, the Congress of Vienna (1815). It is like 2 different worlds.

I'm not sure I can agree to such a sharp dividing line and say that prior to 1815 musical education was essential and after 1815 it wasn't so anymore. Especially in the German world, but by no means limited to it, a thorough musical education was the norm all throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th as well, as attested by the numerous writers, scientists and philosophers for whom music was an integral part of their education and life: Friedrich Nietzsche, Thomas Mann, Hermann Hesse, Werner Heisenberg to name but a few of the greatest were passionate music lovers and connoiseurs and music pervades all their writings.

Generally speaking I think the transition from a worldview to another takes much longer time than one year. Here's another question: when did the harpsichord fell out of use and was replaced for good with the piano? I don't think you can come up with a specific year; rather you can point to a transitional period of several years, even decades. Am I wrong?

[Gurn Blanston]

This is exactly what I expected.

That's great. I wonder how many amateurs today can tackle them. 

I'm not sure I can agree to such a sharp dividing line and say that prior to 1815 musical education was essential and after 1815 it wasn't so anymore. Especially in the German world, but by no means limited to it, a thorough musical education was the norm all throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th as well, as attested by the numerous writers, scientists and philosophers for whom music was an integral part of their education and life: Friedrich Nietzsche, Thomas Mann, Hermann Hesse, Werner Heisenberg to name but a few of the greatest were passionate music lovers and connoiseurs and music pervades all their writings.

Generally speaking I think the transition from a worldview to another takes much longer time than one year. Here's another question: when did the harpsichord fell out of use and was replaced for good with the piano? I don't think you can come up with a specific year; rather you can point to a transitional period of several years, even decades. Am I wrong?

I only have a moment for a quick reply here, I just wanted to stem any possible misunderstanding that I see developing (my fault). I wasn't going to say that at that point in time music education became less important; rather it became just the opposite. What I was intending to convey was that in the 18th century and before, this education was confined to a certain, very restricted range of individuals. However, in terms of evolutionary time, the changeover in the early 19th century was indeed very abrupt. The rise of the middle class and the sudden phenomenon (in Vienna at the very least) of virtually every home having a piano and some other instruments, only made music education more important and widespread than before. However, the adjunct areas, such as rhetoric and classicism which were the subjects of a well-rounded upper level education became less important, at the least in the sense of how music was tied in to them.

THREAD DUTY: this is one of the chief reasons why Haydn's music ceased to be understood for what it was and faded into insignificance. It was no longer being heard by the same people with the same values and knowledge for which it had been originally composed.

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 34

1785



I find it hard to imagine that any praise from his Count, or a king or emperor, would have as much sweetness as this dedication by Mozart, the man who Haydn considered to be his only peer in the musical world. Despite the contemporary flowery language, even today the feeling between the two clearly shows up in this little paragraph (taken here from Collected Correspondence & London Notebooks &c) by H.C. Robbins-Landon.

And beyond his own front door, France came calling with a request for six symphonies for Paris. Three of them made it to paper in '85, the other three would follow next year.

The sole survivor of what Haydn said was a set of quartets destined for Spain occurs this year. It is the only 'single', and the smallest quartet in total measures, but it is a model of concision  and pure concentrated musicality.

And the string of keyboard trios continues. Combined with the 2 from last year, they are a nice set of six now, Hob 5-10.

And now also a keyboard transcription of a set of minuets and trios. Such a blow that the original orchestrations haven't survived, but the keyboard reductions, so very popular at the time, at least have preserved the music. But a set that did survive, has unfortunately not been recorded (or at least not so you would be able to find them). Dances and Marches (Hob 9 & are the great black hole of recordings.

And finally, a couple of more replacement arias for the lovely Luigia. Ah, love is grand!   

The music of 1785;

Hob 01_083 Symphony in g
   Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
Hob 01_085 Symphony in Bb
   Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Hob 01_087 Symphony in A
   Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken


Hob 03_43 Quartet in d for Strings Op 42
   Quatuors Festetics


Hob 09_09 6 Allemandes (German Dances) for Flute, 2 Oboes, Bassoon, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, Timpani & Strings

No recording available.   


Hob 15_07 Trio in D for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_08 Trio in Bb for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_09 Trio in A  for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_10 Trio in Eb  for Piano & Strings
   Trio 1790



Hob 17a_deest / 09_08 12 Menuets for Keyboard (w/Trio)
   Bart van Oort


Hob 24b_07 Aria for Soprano  "Signor voi sapete"  Rosina (Sop) - "Il matrimonio per inganno" by Anfossi
Hob 24b_08 Aria for Soprano  "Dica pure chi vuol dire" Modesta (Sop) - "Il geloso in cimento" by Anfossi
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg   Nuria Rial


The symphonies written for Paris. A hallmark of Haydn's career, and interesting a group of compositions as any by anyone. Here is a book that many might find handy and informative;


Even though it presupposes a knowledge of music theory for about half of it (not too dense though), the remainder is interesting history. As for the music itself, here you will find my monumental inability to choose favorites at the fore. I have five full sets on PI (there are tons more on MI if that's how you roll). I listened to the entire five many times and ended up with essentially one from each plus one duplicate. You will be able to fathom the 'winner' in the next essay...   Suffice to say, any or all of these are very pleasing performances.

For the d minor quartet, I'll follow the Texas tradition of 'dancin' with who brung me' and continuing the Festetics here. Sort of surprising that the Mosaiques didn't include this on their Op 33 (the usual procedure). It is the sort of a piece that is totally congruent with their playing style. So it goes.

If you were to want to get just one disk of the Trio 1790 set to see what they sound like, I couldn't make a stronger recommendation than Volume 1. With Hob 6-10 (5 trios!) it is jam-packed with goodness. Or maybe it's just me...   nah, it's not just me.

Bart does a nice job with all of these piano reductions of the dances. We have Brautigam too, and he is no slouch himself, but overall, Bart's the man!  It is not big music, but it is nice music. Easy to visualize the upper half whirling around the Redoubtensaal at Carnival.

And finally, the insertion arias for his sweetie. Both on works by Anfossi, a very popular favorite not only at Esterháza but throughout Europe. Beautiful little arias, nicely sung here by Rial.

So there we have it. 1785, another pearl in the string of great years for music.

As always, comment welcomed.

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks so much for this!! It seems greedy to ask for more, but if isn't too difficult, it would be nice to have the last one as well. I feel grateful just to have these though, and will happily live with your effort thus far!!

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks so much for this!! It seems greedy to ask for more, but if isn't too difficult, it would be nice to have the last one as well. I feel grateful just to have these though, and will happily live with your effort thus far!!

Thanks, Neal. You can have them all to date, and quite easily. Just click that little globe icon in my sidebar and it will bring you to an index that is also clickable. My earlier efforts were rather more obviously just beginnings, but the info is still good.



----------------
Now playing:

Cleveland Orchestra; Welser-Möst; Measha Brueggergosman - Kelley O'Connor - Frank Lopardo - René Pape; Cleveland Orchestra Chorus; Robert Porco
Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

[Elgarian]

Hob 01_083 Symphony in g
   Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
Hob 01_085 Symphony in Bb
   Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt

You're just trying to find more ways of making me spend more money, right?

[Gurn Blanston]

You're just trying to find more ways of making me spend more money, right?

Suffice to say, any or all of these are very pleasing performances.

No, I'm not essentially a cruel man, mi amigo. I actually had only Kuijken for several years before getting any of the others and was very content. If you did want to try another viewpoint, I would suggest the two disks by Goodman. On Helios, they can be had for quite little (at least on this side). In fact, I find Brüggen to be a tad too deliberate in these, although others would be delighted.

[Gurn Blanston]

Since I don't get an opportunity to work on this project during the week, I am going to go ahead with the next installment now. Please feel free to comment or question, and enjoy the music!

Part 35

1786

When the Concerts de la Loge Olympique de Paris, at the instigation of le Compte d'Ogny, decided in 1784 to commission the famous Haydn to compose six symphonies for them, they probably were only vaguely aware of such things as the everlasting glory that would accrue to them. By 1786, when the second set of three were completed, Haydn's star was so far on the rise that people who successfully got a completed commission from him became themselves famous by reflection. For their (unheard of!) 30 Louis d'Or (including publication rights) per symphony, they got the 6 most progressive symphonies published in Europe to date.

But that was merely part of the year. The King of Naples requested 5 concerti for his pet instrument, the lira organizzata, a hurdy-gurdy relative that got it's big start in the courts of France. But the King was a Bourbon, so he, too, got his big start in the courts of France, so it was a natural, I suppose. Despite the fact that this was a rather limited instrument, Haydn was an all-in sort of fellow, and these 5 concerti (two this year, three next) were first rate enough that a few years from now he would replace the lira parts with flute and oboe and take them along to London where they were a popular hit at the Solomon Concerts.

Yet another major foreign commission of the year came from Spain. A Canon of the City of Cadiz asked Haydn to compose the music for Good Friday services. The result was the orchestral version of The Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross, one of the singularly greatest and most famous pieces of Haydn's career. As this is the first of 4 eventual versions, we will hear more about it later. It is unquestionably my favorite version though.

And that hasn't even got yet to the lovely Adagio in F for Keyboard, nor yet to the cantata or replacement aria of the year... Definitely a great year, this one.

Music of 1786;

Hob 01_082 Symphony in C
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_084 Symphony in Eb
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_086 Symphony in D
   Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt



Hob 07h_1 Concerto in C for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges / Quatuor Mosaiques / Coin
Hob 07h_2 Concerto in G for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
   Ruf / Lautenberger &  Nielen / Beyer & Berndt / Uhl / Koch / Hoffman & Irmscher



Hob 17_09 Adagio in F for Keyboard
   Paul Badura-Skoda



Hob 20_1 The Seven Last Words; Orchestral version
   Le Concert des Nations / Savall


Hob 24a_07 Cantata Miseri noi, misera patria (Recitative & Aria)
   Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Jordan   Edith Mathis


Hob 24b_09 Aria for Soprano   "Sono Alcina, e sono ancora" - for Lesbia (Sop) - "L'isola di Alcina" by Gazzaniga
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg   Nuria Rial


The balance of the Paris symphonies are out there now. As I mentioned last year, I want to give the full range of PI possibilities. I can't possibly give the full range of MI possibilities, as these are among the most heavily recorded symphonies by anyone! But adding in these three, there is a representative of each of the five sets I have, plus the one with two numbers, Harnoncourt. I well remember when this set was introduced, it caused shockwaves of a sort among the critical establishment. It was a few years before I was able to see my way clear to acquire for myself, and after listening I thought 'what was all the to-do about?' It is a very fine set, much liked by myself, but hardly out on the radical edge, IMO.

The first two (of five) lira concertos. Versions using an actual lira are thin on the ground. I have included the #1 from the 'Delirium' disk, a very nice taste of what the original must have sounded like. The second version (and the one for the final three next year) is a classic version and the only one ever recorded AFAIK of all five concerti. It was licensed by Brilliant and included in the Big Box (man, that was a friendly gesture) but sadly there is little information provided about it there. Nonetheless, I am delighted to have it, it is very cool-sounding, there is not anything really else like it.

For the Adagio in F for keyboard, I decided on Badura-Skoda for a few reasons; I am a huge fan to start with, and for good reason, he is the Viennese fortepianist par excellence, and he is playing (his own) Schantz fortepiano, very likely the same kind as Haydn was using when he composed the piece originally. There are several other good versions out there too, I like Schornsheim, Brautigam and Oort all, but PBS has the certain something for me.

The same can be said about the orchestral Seven Last Words...; there are several good versions out there, but Savall's seems to transport you to the Cathedral of Cádiz in 1787 for the Good Friday service. You can smell the incense; if by chance there comes an earthquake, you'll fall right out.   This version includes the written/spoken text just like Haydn's original. Fortunately, each is on its own separate track so you can optionally listen or not.

The Cantata Miseri noi, misera patria (Recitative & Aria) was composed in Esterháza, probably for the Esterháza prima donna, Metilde Porta. The text, by the very popular 18th century poet, Anonymous, concerns an eyewitness account of a major city being razed and burned by an unnamed invader. Lovely stuff. This cantata, in typical recitative & aria form, was unpublished until Haydn brought it to England with him, almost certainly to be performed at the Solomon Concerts. This version is in the Dorati Operas, a nice performance that you will like, I think.

And we close out this great year with another replacement aria, this time for an opera by Gazzaniga. Once again, the lovely Ms. Rial holds our attention with ease. I am beginning to suspect that her voice is probably better than the lady's for which the arias were originally composed.

So, 1786. We are really starting to get into the meat & potatoes Haydn now. It is highly likely that he is already the most famous composer in the world, and his best is yet to come!

As always, questions, comments etc, most welcome!

[Antoine Marchand]

I don't have that disc sung by Nuria Rial, but it's apparently mandatory, isn't it?



She is usually a lovely singer, the same as her contemporary Raquel Andueza, so I'm sold. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't have that disc sung by Nuria Rial, but it's apparently mandatory, isn't it?



She is usually a lovely singer, the same as her contemporary Raquel Andueza, so I'm sold. 

Well, Antoine, I would have to say yes. These are lovely little arias, well-played and sung, and in addition, it is music that you are hard pressed to get elsewhere (although not impossible, but still, not as easily either!). Altogether a nice combination.

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, Antoine, I would have to say yes. These are lovely little arias, well-played and sung, and in addition, it is music that you are hard pressed to get elsewhere (although not impossible, but still, not as easily either!). Altogether a nice combination.

Well, I guess sometimes a man must do what a man must do. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I guess sometimes a man must do what a man must do. 

Yes, into every life comes one of those chores...

At least I am confident that you will like it.