Haydn's Haus

[TheGSMoeller]

Recent purchase of another Haydn/Orpheus C.O. disc, my fifth now. Bought it mainly for "La Chasse" (I'm a sucker for those hunting calls, and Haydn symphonies that end quietly), and I'm impressed again with their performance. I find they produce a romantic quality to some of their symphony recordings (mainly in No.44 and No.45) and with No.73 they offer an interesting and enjoyable interpretation. Orpheus C.O. is in tough competition as I also have Harnoncourt, Goodman and Fey's "La Chasse" in my collection and they are all very good.

[Gurn Blanston]

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Recent purchase of another Haydn/Orpheus C.O. disc, my fifth now. Bought it mainly for "La Chasse" (I'm a sucker for those hunting calls, and Haydn symphonies that end quietly), and I'm impressed again with their performance. I find they produce a romantic quality to some of their symphony recordings (mainly in No.44 and No.45) and with No.73 they offer an interesting and enjoyable interpretation. Orpheus C.O. is in tough competition as I also have Harnoncourt, Goodman and Fey's "La Chasse" in my collection and they are all very good.

That's a very nice disk, Greg, one of my very first Haydn disks other than London Symphonies (I got it from BMG Record Club before it was BMG Record Club... RCA?). I also got a couple more of theirs which are equally nice. Have to agree with you though, the competition in 'La chasse' is incredibly tough.

[Florestan]

I only have a moment for a quick reply here, I just wanted to stem any possible misunderstanding that I see developing (my fault). I wasn't going to say that at that point in time music education became less important; rather it became just the opposite. What I was intending to convey was that in the 18th century and before, this education was confined to a certain, very restricted range of individuals. However, in terms of evolutionary time, the changeover in the early 19th century was indeed very abrupt. The rise of the middle class and the sudden phenomenon (in Vienna at the very least) of virtually every home having a piano and some other instruments, only made music education more important and widespread than before. However, the adjunct areas, such as rhetoric and classicism which were the subjects of a well-rounded upper level education became less important, at the least in the sense of how music was tied in to them.

THREAD DUTY: this is one of the chief reasons why Haydn's music ceased to be understood for what it was and faded into insignificance. It was no longer being heard by the same people with the same values and knowledge for which it had been originally composed.

That's interesting. Let's see if I understand you correctly. Wiith the rise of the bourgeoisie, musical education received a boost while the accompanying rhetoric declined and faded away. Music was disconnected from the intellectual rigor of rhetoric and thus the "bourgeois sentimentality" made its appearance (I'm using both terms without any pejorative undertone). While in times past music was an affair of both "sense and sensibility", the Bourgeois Romanticism dropped the latter term. Music became more and more personal and sentimental and the cosmopolitan and restraint soundworld of the Classicism was replaced by the nationalistic and expansive one of the Romanticism (again, both terms used without any pejorative undertone). The ties with rhetoric were severed, but new ones appeared (or rather came to the front and gained primacy): with literature and painting.

Well, I guess this is generally true. But compared to Classicism, was it a decline or a progress? I'd say neither one. It was just something different. Both Classicism and Romanticism produced music of high quality and beauty and I wouldn't be without any of the two.

[Gurn Blanston]

That's interesting. Let's see if I understand you correctly. Wiith the rise of the bourgeoisie, musical education received a boost while the accompanying rhetoric declined and faded away. Music was disconnected from the intellectual rigor of rhetoric and thus the "bourgeois sentimentality" made its appearance (I'm using both terms without any pejorative undertone). While in times past music was an affair of both "sense and sensibility", the Bourgeois Romanticism dropped the latter term. Music became more and more personal and sentimental and the cosmopolitan and restraint soundworld of the Classicism was replaced by the nationalistic and expansive one of the Romanticism (again, both terms used without any pejorative undertone). The ties with rhetoric were severed, but new ones appeared (or rather came to the front and gained primacy): with literature and painting.

Well, I guess this is generally true. But compared to Classicism, was it a decline or a progress? I'd say neither one. It was just something different. Both Classicism and Romanticism produced music of high quality and beauty and I wouldn't be without any of the two.

Yes, that's the way I read it. The social changes that came about after The Enlightenment served to change the focus of music from its pre-1800 status to an entirely different one. It was still a social status symbol, but it represented an entirely different group of people.

[Karl Henning]

First the piano trios. Then the string quartets. And now the piano solo works.

O Lord, have I been an Haydnista in denial, all these years? . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

First the piano trios. Then the string quartets. And now the piano solo works.

O Lord, have I been an Haydnista in denial, all these years? . . .

All Haydn asks is a fair chance; he'll take it from there.    0:)

[Karl Henning]

Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

The Adagio is very nice; the entire sonata kicks ass...   0:)

[Karl Henning]

The Adagio is very nice; the entire sonata kicks ass...   0:)

Well, then: no wonder that I am listening to disc 12 first! : )

[Elgarian]

Yes, that's the way I read it. The social changes that came about after The Enlightenment served to change the focus of music from its pre-1800 status to an entirely different one. It was still a social status symbol, but it represented an entirely different group of people.

One can take a similar overview of what was happening in the visual arts. Post 1800, the humble watercolour (derided as a medium for amateurs and mere topographical draughtsmen) became the affordable choice for the steadily growing group of middle classes. Oil painting remained the medium of prestige for portraits of artistocrats and Grand History paintings, but by 1830 in England the Old Watercolour Society was selling picturesque landscapes, to an entirely new clientele, and selling them like hot cakes. As you say Gurn - a whole new bunch of people were suddenly calling the shots.

[Elgarian]

Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

I just read this, and Lo, here is the Beghin box by my side. I shall embark upon a dash at CD12 this instant.

[Karl Henning]

Dash with confidence, O Alan!

[Karl Henning]

That Adagio has moments of Liszt, before there ever was a Liszt. (More than 15 years before Ferencz's birth, i.e.)

[Elgarian]

Dash with confidence, O Alan!

Listening to the allegro of Hob XIV.52, I'll tell yer this, old chap: if I played this to all the good folk of my acquaintance, I betcha a million pounds 50 pence* that none of them would guess the composer to be Haydn.

*Caution creeping in...

[Elgarian]

Well you can say what you like, people, but that Allegro rocks!

[Elgarian]

And I'd just like to add that I came to this fresh from the box of Vaughan Williams movie music: not, I suspect, the best preparation.

[Karl Henning]

Well, but in being such a clear contrast, perhaps the best preparation, indeed.

All right! All right!  I'm listening to the Allegro again! The whole schnitzel enchilada!

[Elgarian]

And I'm with you Karl - the Adagio is lovely. Lovely and somehow quite shocking. And I know I'm no judge, truly I am not, but if this isn't exquisite playing then I'm a banana.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well you can say what you like, people, but that Allegro rocks!

No lie. I have bounced that movement off more than one classical fan and left them agape. I personally think that he could have written a lot more at that level if his intended players were the caliber of Teresa Bartolozzi (nee Janzen). She was an amateur, but apparently had the gift. Clementi called her one of his finest students. Not hard to imagine why!

[Karl Henning]

No lie. I have bounced that movement off more than one classical fan and left them agape. I personally think that he could have written a lot more at that level if his intended players were the caliber of Teresa Bartolozzi (nee Janzen).

Yes, and I might have seen that point a-coming before. After all, I've written quite a passel of sacred choral music for choirs of modest means . . . reserving a piece like the Passion for a choir capable of it.