Haydn's Haus

[Opus106]

Any reason why Haydn waited until No. 99 to write a symphony which employed clarinets? Was Stadler too busy playing Mozart?

Perhaps this is the appropriate time for this post to resurface?  0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

Perhaps this is the appropriate time for this post to resurface?  0:)

Well, the evidence is negative, but I can tell you that there were never any clarinets at Esterháza. Neither were there any in London the first time he went there. That's why he replaced the 2 clarinets in the notturni with 2 more violins in the London versions. Clarinets were a Viennese specialty at that time. Naples, of course, being culturally a mini-Vienna/mini-Paris, had clarinets, but they really were uncommon overall. He may have been told before his return that there were going to be a pair of clarinettists in London this time, and that spurred him on to add them. I'll see when I get home if I have some more info than that.

[Gurn Blanston]

I always assumed that the tension between Beethoven and Haydn was attributed to Beethoven being a jackass... but lo and beyond he had legitimate cause to be pissed.  Recalling grad school, the casual shop talk profs are hard to learn from, that's why I went for a nose to the grind stone adviser.  The former doesn't work well with most students.  Did Beethoven say anything about the value of his time with Haydn later besides the didn't want to teach me stuff?

Well, Beethoven was a jackass. But he probably had some cause for it. It's hard to imagine that Haydn, freshly returned from the first London trip, was all that eager to plop down and work on the mechanics of counterpoint. That isn't where his value would have been to start with. Going to Albrechtsberger was probably a very good thing. However, in the 'casual shop talk' category, be also learned things he would have never come close to with Albrechtsberger. So both had their value.

I can't quote off the top of my head, but I will look up some of Beethoven's later quotes about Haydn. Of course, we all realize that it would have been totally inappropriate to the Beethoven Myth, as far as the Romantics who created it were concerned, to have him feel even a modicum of gratitude to such a shallow lackey of the Establishment as Haydn?  But the fact remains that on his bedroom wall when he died, the only picture was of the house that Haydn was born in.

[Karl Henning]

Sure, Beethoven was a young hothead in a hurry.

And (separately) the clarinet as a new instrument would not have prlliferated instantaneously.

[Gurn Blanston]

Sure, Beethoven was a young hothead in a hurry.

And (separately) the clarinet as a new instrument would not have prlliferated instantaneously.

Very true on both counts.

There were some centers where clarinets had a strong foothold, such as Vienna, Paris and Prague, but outside of those, it just wasn't happening. Recall that Mozart had to rewrite most of his Paris orchestral music in the late 1770's when he brought it back to Salzburg. He complained loud and long about not having clarinets there, but to no avail. So it goes.

It is also postulated that Haydn wasn't nearly as enamored of the sound of the clarinet as Mozart was. Wolfie was intellectually drunk on it. Haydn was... meh, that's OK, I guess....

[Karl Henning]

Very true on both counts.

There were some centers where clarinets had a strong foothold, such as Vienna, Paris and Prague, but outside of those, it just wasn't happening. Recall that Mozart had to rewrite most of his Paris orchestral music in the late 1770's when he brought it back to Salzburg. He complained loud and long about not having clarinets there, but to no avail. So it goes.

It is also postulated that Haydn wasn't nearly as enamored of the sound of the clarinet as Mozart was. Wolfie was intellectually drunk on it. Haydn was... meh, that's OK, I guess....

We clarinetists are generous of soul, so I can still appreciate the greatness of Haydn's music ; )

But the musical world would naturally wait to see if the instrument took on . . . I mean, it might have gone the way of the baryton (* shudder *) . . . .

[Opus106]

Thanks, Gurn.

[Gurn Blanston]

We clarinetists are generous of soul, so I can still appreciate the greatness of Haydn's music ; )

But the musical world would naturally wait to see if the instrument took on . . . I mean, it might have gone the way of the baryton (* shudder *) . . . .

I read an interesting essay the other day concerning why Haydn's music is still underappreciated, and the author said that the only group as a whole that were unabashedly major Haydn fans were composers. So I guess you were genetically programmed for it.

Thanks, Gurn.

Anytime, Navneeth. All questions are welcome in der Haus.

[Karl Henning]

We composers will surprise you. It's not always about the Atonal Honking!

[starrynight]

Well, Beethoven was a jackass. But he probably had some cause for it. It's hard to imagine that Haydn, freshly returned from the first London trip, was all that eager to plop down and work on the mechanics of counterpoint. That isn't where his value would have been to start with. Going to Albrechtsberger was probably a very good thing. However, in the 'casual shop talk' category, be also learned things he would have never come close to with Albrechtsberger. So both had their value.

I can't quote off the top of my head, but I will look up some of Beethoven's later quotes about Haydn. Of course, we all realize that it would have been totally inappropriate to the Beethoven Myth, as far as the Romantics who created it were concerned, to have him feel even a modicum of gratitude to such a shallow lackey of the Establishment as Haydn?  But the fact remains that on his bedroom wall when he died, the only picture was of the house that Haydn was born in.

Isn't his 8th symphony proof enough? 

[Leon]

I've enjoyed reading the last few pages of the Haus.  It is such a nice place on GMG to hang out - filled with scholarship, wit and discussions of a great composer and period.

 

Regarding Beethoven and Haydn: I tend to agree that it was not the most serendipitous time for these particular men to form a relationship.  Albrechtsberger was considered to be one of the, if not the, greatest theory/counterpoint teachers of his generation, and Beethoven was well served by his time with him.  And I agree with Gurn that Haydn had other fish to fry.

All's well that ends well.

[starrynight]

From what I remember Haydn was just doing someone who requested he help Beethoven a favour.  There could have been no way he would have known what Beethoven was to become.

Beethoven didn't like Haydn't request  to say that he was a teacher of Beethoven on the Op1 publication.  Maybe Haydn remembered Mozart and how he dedicated a set of string quartets to him.  But Mozart had reached his compositional maturity already and had fully found his own compositional voice and because of that could confidently acknowledge his forbears.  Beethoven, while a very good composer, was yet to really fully feel he had found himself musically in these early stages.  By the later years perhaps he did feel he had learnt enough from Haydn and others to progress his music but at that early point he didn't feel that way.

[mszczuj]

Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/  here is a nice shot from this event.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've enjoyed reading the last few pages of the Haus.  It is such a nice place on GMG to hang out - filled with scholarship, wit and discussions of a great composer and period.

 

Regarding Beethoven and Haydn: I tend to agree that it was not the most serendipitous time for these particular men to form a relationship.  Albrechtsberger was considered to be one of the, if not the, greatest theory/counterpoint teachers of his generation, and Beethoven was well served by his time with him.  And I agree with Gurn that Haydn had other fish to fry.

All's well that ends well.

And always a pleasure to see you here, Arnold. You help make it what it is, after all.

Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/  here is a nice shot from this event.

That's a great picture. It was destroyed (or disappeared) in WWII, unfortunately, because it was painted actually as the cover to a box or something that belonged to Marie Esterházy, Haydn's protector in his old age. That was the last really big day in Haydn's life, despite that he only made it to the end of Part I...

[Leon]

Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/  here is a nice shot from this event.

Thanks for the link to that blog - it looks like it has much good information, and is now added to my RSS reader. 

Speaking of which; I created an eBay search for 'Haydn" and added that to my reader only to discover that there were so many hits that I had to unsubscribe and think of a more specific search in order to focus only on the kind of things I might want to buy.  But it is nice to know that so much Haydn is available on eBay.  I've hardly shopped there for music.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for the link to that blog - it looks like it has much good information, and is now added to my RSS reader. 

Speaking of which; I created an eBay search for 'Haydn" and added that to my reader only to discover that there were so many hits that I had to unsubscribe and think of a more specific search in order to focus only on the kind of things I might want to buy.  But it is nice to know that so much Haydn is available on eBay.  I've hardly shopped there for music.

This is the search that I set up for Haydn in eBay:

Haydn -Lili -Brahms -baby -dudewheresmyobi

The category is "CD's", and in my case, I selected "North America only" and "Accepts PayPal".

Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass.

I run this search every morning without fail. It has paid off handsomely for me over the years.

[Leon]

This is the search that I set up for Haydn in eBay:

Haydn -Lili -Brahms -baby -dudewheresmyobi

The category is "CD's", and in my case, I selected "North America only" and "Accepts PayPal".

Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass.

I run this search every morning without fail. It has paid off handsomely for me over the years.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, one more thing; I don't let it send me an email with every new listing either. I just manually go look. There is still a lot of dross to sift through, I would break something if I got an email about all of it!

I also have a similar searches set up for Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Of course....

[Karl Henning]

Gurn, you da man!

[Leon]

Oh, one more thing; I don't let it send me an email with every new listing either. I just manually go look. There is still a lot of dross to sift through, I would break something if I got an email about all of it!

I also have a similar searches set up for Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Of course....

I am using Google Reader in which the listings will show up as items under the eBay header.  I will setup something like your search, and even if there is dross, scrolling down the list is not nearly as bothersome as emails and much more convenient than visiting the site itself.  If I see something I wish to bid on or buy, I can just click the title and it will take me to the listing.

If you have not used an RSS reader I highly recommend one (Google Reader is fine but there are many others) for sites for which you wish to have new content pushed out to you instead of you having to go to the site.