Haydn's Haus

[Leon]

If you don't mind the query, what price did you nab the Kuijken at?

Incidentally, that Lenny/NY Phil set looks sweet . . . and I'd never before wondered what his Haydn sounds like . . . fact is, now that (thanks to da Haus) I've become a fan of both The Creation and the Masses, I am susceptible to this box as I never was before.

The Kuijken box has always been north of $80 or $90, and now even at $107, but when I saw it for $65.00 I leaped.  The Bernstein was in the $45 neighborhood.

Well, timing is everything, Philippe; I note that the current is $107, up from the $85 that it used to sell for. I have the individual disks of this set on DHM, I would have bought the box but the price has always been steep. I am very fond indeed of these recordings. There are many good London's, but these are solid throughout the cycle.

I like Bernstein/VPO in some symphonies, but haven't really spent any time with the NYPO disks. As a personal preference, I don't listen to modern instrument Haydn, although I certainly don't discourage others, and I always like Bernstein anyway. I still, after 50 years, owe him a debt for making me love music.

Bernstein can legitimately (I think) be called a Haydnisto, he certainly devoted a significant amount of his energy and recording time to his works.

I am also prone to prefering PI recordings, but recently indulged in modern symphony recordings in addition to the Bernstein, Szell doing Haydn and Krips doing Mozart.  Not to worry, I also just got the Brautigam Haydn concerto set.

It's all good.

[Karl Henning]

At $65, that set was well seized upon!

[Gurn Blanston]

Bernstein can legitimately (I think) be called a Haydnisto, he certainly devoted a significant amount of his energy and recording time to his works.

I am also prone to prefering PI recordings, but recently indulged in modern symphony recordings in addition to the Bernstein, Szell doing Haydn and Krips doing Mozart.  Not to worry, I also just got the Brautigam Haydn concerto set.

It's all good.

Yes indeed. As a useful adjunct to those Bernstein symphonies, this disk;

[asin]B00000E2WJ[/asin]

is a very fine effort which I can't recommend more highly.

Those Brautigam concertos are really nice, he kicks butt in #11...

[kishnevi]

Yes indeed. As a useful adjunct to those Bernstein symphonies, this disk;

[asin]B00000E2WJ[/asin]

is a very fine effort which I can't recommend more highly.

Those Brautigam concertos are really nice, he kicks butt in #11...

Even better, get the boxset, which has all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War.  Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good.  And for just under $20, too.
[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

[Gurn Blanston]

Even better, get the boxset, which has all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War.  Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good.  And for just under $20, too.
[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

Yup, that would work. It is at least a couple of things that aren't on the NYPO set...

[Madiel]

Me too. In fact, the contents of survey of yesterday, 1757, resides on my MP3 player full time as I enjoy all that early music. I think that since Haydn was a late starter in composition compared to some of his peers that people are fooled by low numbers. He was a very mature 25 years old at the time he composed Symphony #1. So it isn't as though it was juvenilia! I agree with you about 6, 7, & 8 also. Lovely works!

I've actually been thinking about this just recently, about how different the idea of an 'early work' is for different composers.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you live to a decent old age, then things written in your mid-20s are early works assuming you carry on for most of your life.  Heck, I've been listening to "early works" of Faure recently and he was in his 30s by then, but still had over 40 years of composing to go.

Whereas if you're somone like Mozart, Chopin or Schubert, by the time you hit your mid-20s you are thoroughly mid-career.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've actually been thinking about this just recently, about how different the idea of an 'early work' is for different composers.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you live to a decent old age, then things written in your mid-20s are early works assuming you carry on for most of your life.  Heck, I've been listening to "early works" of Faure recently and he was in his 30s by then, but still had over 40 years of composing to go.

Whereas if you're someone like Mozart, Chopin or Schubert, by the time you hit your mid-20s you are thoroughly mid-career.

Indeed so. I can't put my hands on it right this minute, but I read, long ago, something to the effect that if Beethoven had died at the same age as Mozart, we would only have a couple of symphonies, six quartets, 18 or so sonatas, and really, not a lot else to distinguish him as anything more than a promising career cut short! And generally speaking, despite admitting Haydn's mastery of the sonata form, most people today, when challenged to list his best works, can really only name things he composed after he reached 60 years! So, a late bloomer, or do we sometimes have to recalibrate our estimation of 'early works'?     

[Madiel]

Indeed so. I can't put my hands on it right this minute, but I read, long ago, something to the effect that if Beethoven had died at the same age as Mozart, we would only have a couple of symphonies, six quartets, 18 or so sonatas, and really, not a lot else to distinguish him as anything more than a promising career cut short! And generally speaking, despite admitting Haydn's mastery of the sonata form, most people today, when challenged to list his best works, can really only name things he composed after he reached 60 years! So, a late bloomer, or do we sometimes have to recalibrate our estimation of 'early works'?     

I don't think it's that he's a late bloomer, simply that (as is also recently under discussion in the "composers you don't get") a composer's later work is frequently 'better' or more mature than their early work, and in the long term at least it's usually appreciated as a further development.  Your most developed works are usually the ones towards the end of your career, regardless of the age at which your career ended.

It's much easier to compare a composer to himself at a different age than it is to compare one composer to another.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't think it's that he's a late bloomer, simply that (as is also recently under discussion in the "composers you don't get") a composer's later work is frequently 'better' or more mature than their early work, and in the long term at least it's usually appreciated as a further development.  Your most developed works are usually the ones towards the end of your career, regardless of the age at which your career ended.

It's much easier to compare a composer to himself at a different age than it is to compare one composer to another.

Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit.

[Madiel]

Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit.

Agreed. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule by any means.  I have composers I like more in the middle than at either end.  Can't think of any off the top of my head where I explicitly prefer the early work, but there could well be someone.  For Haydn I haven't had the opportunity to find out yet - I just know I really, really like the 1790s material because that's what I know so far.  Which gives me a CLUE that I might also like his earlier work.  And I think it will be fun to find out.

[mc ukrneal]

Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit.

Well said.

[Opus106]

Well said.

The Gurnatron almost always says things well.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit.

I think, too, that with Haydn, we have a composer who early on establishes technical mastery, and then there is a point where he kicksc into overdrive.

[Karl Henning]

Watched In Search of Haydn again last night, this time with Mamochka, who really enjoyed it, as well, finding it of absorbing interest throughout, beautifully filmed, and in particular, that the music performers were shot interestingly. I've not yet watched the extras, which include an interview with the director . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Agreed. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule by any means.  I have composers I like more in the middle than at either end.  Can't think of any off the top of my head where I explicitly prefer the early work, but there could well be someone.  For Haydn I haven't had the opportunity to find out yet - I just know I really, really like the 1790s material because that's what I know so far.  Which gives me a CLUE that I might also like his earlier work.  And I think it will be fun to find out.

Well, in the interest of being controversial (although I rarely am ) one name I can throw out in this regard is Beethoven. I dote on early & middle Beethoven, yet while I readily admit that the technical mastery of the late works preempts anything that came before (and most things that came later too), I don't get nearly the enjoyment from them. The raw power and flow of ideas of the young Beethoven is unprecedented, IMO.

Well said.

The Gurnatron almost always says things well.

Thank you guys. I wasn't sure to what extent I was flying in the face of convention. Glad it wasn't just me...  0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

I think, too, that with Haydn, we have a composer who early on establishes technical mastery, and then there is a point where he kicksc into overdrive.

That's another aspect not often noted during the age discussion (which has been going on for, well, ages!). The eight or so years that Haydn spent between getting kicked out of the Vienna Boys' Choir and landing a job with Morzin were spent studying. His copy of Fux (Gradus ad Parnassum) was still in his library when he died, and the margins were chock full of notes from a lifetime of study, but beginning way back in the day when no one knew his name. And his work with Porpora taught him much too, even way beyond how to set a voice to music. Not to mention that he was a genius, something all too often overlooked.

[Gurn Blanston]

Watched In Search of Haydn again last night, this time with Mamochka, who really enjoyed it, as well, finding it of absorbing interest throughout, beautifully filmed, and in particular, that the music performers were shot interestingly. I've not yet watched the extras, which include an interview with the director . . . .

I'm so looking forward to this. Actually, I'm pleased that I wasn't aware of it during the making of. Now I am only having to anticipate just at the last minute.

[Karl Henning]

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

. . . all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War.  Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good.  And for just under $20, too.

[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

Oh, dis Haus — 'twill be my ruination. Yes, yes, I've pulled the trigger on both these, within these past 24 hours.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, dis Haus — 'twill be my ruination. Yes, yes, I've pulled the trigger on both these, within these past 24 hours.

Oh Karl!     

Splendid, really. And such a bargain for so much music.

[Karl Henning]

Oh Karl!     

Splendid, really. And such a bargain for so much music.

I do expect good listenin' O Gurn . . . experience of the twin Sony & DG reissues of Lenny's Sibelius, plus my turbo-fied interest in "Papa" — I am sure I shall dig these.  There was a reviewer on Amazon who didn't much care for the Sinfonia concertante in the DG box, but maybe I shall like it just fine ; )