Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

I hear that the young John Denver (while yet growing up in Corn, Oklahoma, as Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr) wore a powdered wig, himself.

[chasmaniac]

We talked a while back about the tunings used by Beghin. Why isn't more made of this with regard to Haydn, by the HIPsters at least? All we're told about it in relation to, for example, a Festetics or Mosaiques performance, is that they've lowered overall pitch to A=whatever. But these groups seem content to use equal temperament. Did Haydn use this? Am I reading the liner notes wrong? Are they writing the liner notes wrong? Is dinner ready? Talk to me, braintrust.

edit: Ah, so Haydn would have used meantone? Exclusively? Do HIP ensembles use it?

[Gurn Blanston]

We talked a while back about the tunings used by Beghin. Why isn't more made of this with regard to Haydn, by the HIPsters at least? All we're told about it in relation to, for example, a Festetics or Mosaiques performance, is that they've lowered overall pitch to A=whatever. But these groups seem content to use equal temperament. Did Haydn use this? Am I reading the liner notes wrong? Are they writing the liner notes wrong? Is dinner ready? Talk to me, braintrust.

edit: Ah, so Haydn would have used meantone? Exclusively? Do HIP ensembles use it?

Only have a second right now, but I would just say firstly that even temperament or meantone etc. only make a difference when there is a keyboard in the mix. Strings and winds just adapt as need be. According to HR Landon in "Chronicle & Works Vol 3" by the time of the London trips, the keyboards there were already being tuned equal temperament. I was quite surprised to read that, as I was thinking maybe 1820 or so....

[chasmaniac]

According to HR Landon in "Chronicle & Works Vol 3" by the time of the London trips, the keyboards there were already being tuned equal temperament. I was quite surprised to read that, as I was thinking maybe 1820 or so....

It still strikes me as odd that musicians making a point of historical aptness don't so much as mention the temperament thing. I would have thought it important. If they were performing Machaut they'd go all Pythagorean for sure. Eh bien.

[Karl Henning]

Which of the Fey volumes do you like the very best, so far, Sarge?

[chasmaniac]

Slowly taking in the Festetics Haydn this week, and so far their opus 20 is a particular standout. As Gurn says in his survey, they play it with audible pleasure. Lovely.

[asin]B000F5FQ68[/asin]

[Karl Henning]

I love that Œuvre 32 (connus comme opus 20) !!!

[chasmaniac]

I love that Œuvre 32 (connus comme opus 20) !!!

Does give it an air of authenticity, non?

[Karl Henning]

Bien sûr!

[snyprrr]

Well, we're up to Page 50, and you know what that means!

I still only have the Nomos here, seeing as the Tokyo is MIA. I can't possibly think of these pieces without the Nomos's very idiosychr... approach.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, we're up to Page 50, and you know what that means!

I still only have the Nomos here, seeing as the Tokyo is MIA. I can't possibly think of these pieces without the Nomos's very idiosychr... approach.

Why don't you get into the Op 50 blind listening game? You would enjoy it, I bet.

[Uncle Connie]

Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me?  I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it?  So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread.  Shoot me.  I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

I want to ask a couple of really off the wall questions about some of the Masses.  Kind of oddball, but here goes:

1.  There is a Hänssler disc, cat. 98432, entitled "Joseph Haydn:  Missa Solemnis" coupled with a smaller Michael Haydn piece, performed in St.Gallen, Switzerland, and conducted by one Mario Schwartz.  It says "world premiere" across the booklet and purports to contain a lost-and-rediscovered heretofore unknown work by The Master (or in one manuscript it's attributed to Mozart), and it's 45 minutes of perfectly competent Haydn-era mass writing save only for the Quoniam section which is a direct steal from the Missa Cellensis H.XXII:5, the former St.Caecilia Mass (though re-scored slightly).  Would anyone have any idea if there's been any further info. on what this oddity really is?  I bought the thing out of curiosity, and am quite glad I did, but I haven't seen any reviews anywhere, nor obviously any follow-up.  Thoughts?  Oh - also, the conductor, Schwartz, who wrote the booklet, claims that "the fact is that two early masses by Joseph Haydn were destroyed in a fire in Eisenstadt."  Huh?  They were?  Maybe I need to go back and read my Landon better, but I don't remember anything about an Eisenstadt (sic!) fire destroying Masses....

2.  The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone.  I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't.  It was common at the time, in certain parts of Austria (e.g. Salzburg), to add these instruments as a matter of course, which is why most of Michael Haydn's and the early Mozart ones always include them.  But for a Missa brevis in Vienna and the east, no.  (Classic example:  Michael Haydn's MH 596 is the Gloria from Joseph's Little Organ Mass X.XXII:7, expanded to remove the telescoping of the text (which Salzburg disallowed) and adding the requisite trumpets (but in this case no drums), cf. Philips 420-162-2 on which Uwe-Christian Harrer and, again, the Vienna Choir Boys have done both the Joseph Haydn original and the Michael expanded Gloria.)  Okay, I know this is getting insanely musicological, but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is. 

     Next post, promise, will be more normal.  I just wanted to clear my pile of unanswered minutiae.  And I'll also figure out how to post CD photos before I do any more of this referring to obscure discs.

[mc ukrneal]

Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me?  I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it?  So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread.  Shoot me.  I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

As long as it is Haydn, it is relevant, so your post is right on. The topics here change all the time, so no worries. Unfortunately, I cannot help with your questions.

[chasmaniac]

So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread.

I like ice cream!

[Sergeant Rock]

Which of the Fey volumes do you like the very best, so far, Sarge?

Oh heavens. I haven't heard any I've disliked yet. I suppose if I had to pick, say, four, it would be these:






Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Thanks, Sarge! I appreciate your difficulty, and am pleased that the series is good enough to pose such a dilemma : )

[Gurn Blanston]

Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me?  I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it?  So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread.  Shoot me.  I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

I want to ask a couple of really off the wall questions about some of the Masses.  Kind of oddball, but here goes:

1.  There is a Hänssler disc, cat. 98432, entitled "Joseph Haydn:  Missa Solemnis" coupled with a smaller Michael Haydn piece, performed in St.Gallen, Switzerland, and conducted by one Mario Schwartz.  It says "world premiere" across the booklet and purports to contain a lost-and-rediscovered heretofore unknown work by The Master (or in one manuscript it's attributed to Mozart), and it's 45 minutes of perfectly competent Haydn-era mass writing save only for the Quoniam section which is a direct steal from the Missa Cellensis H.XXII:5, the former St.Caecilia Mass (though re-scored slightly).  Would anyone have any idea if there's been any further info. on what this oddity really is?  I bought the thing out of curiosity, and am quite glad I did, but I haven't seen any reviews anywhere, nor obviously any follow-up.  Thoughts?  Oh - also, the conductor, Schwartz, who wrote the booklet, claims that "the fact is that two early masses by Joseph Haydn were destroyed in a fire in Eisenstadt."  Huh?  They were?  Maybe I need to go back and read my Landon better, but I don't remember anything about an Eisenstadt (sic!) fire destroying Masses....

2.  The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone.  I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't.  It was common at the time, in certain parts of Austria (e.g. Salzburg), to add these instruments as a matter of course, which is why most of Michael Haydn's and the early Mozart ones always include them.  But for a Missa brevis in Vienna and the east, no.  (Classic example:  Michael Haydn's MH 596 is the Gloria from Joseph's Little Organ Mass X.XXII:7, expanded to remove the telescoping of the text (which Salzburg disallowed) and adding the requisite trumpets (but in this case no drums), cf. Philips 420-162-2 on which Uwe-Christian Harrer and, again, the Vienna Choir Boys have done both the Joseph Haydn original and the Michael expanded Gloria.)  Okay, I know this is getting insanely musicological, but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is. 

     Next post, promise, will be more normal.  I just wanted to clear my pile of unanswered minutiae.  And I'll also figure out how to post CD photos before I do any more of this referring to obscure discs.

Interesting questions. Let's start with #1 first. I need a tad more info, which should be supplied on the disk anyway. When was this recording made? What key is the mass in? If you can help me out there, I may have you an answer in a little while. I think your second question will be easier, but I may be fooling myself.

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks, Sarge! I appreciate your difficulty, and am pleased that the series is good enough to pose such a dilemma : )

I am not Sarge, (surprise)  ...but he did offer some Fey discs that really shine, especially Vol. 9 (70,73,75) this is a volume that will make or break your interest in Fey's interpretations, many tempi and dynamic changes, focus on the final bars of No.75 for some added depth. Magical stuff.

[Gurn Blanston]

2.  The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone.  I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't.  ...... but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is. 

Well, if you got your info from Wyn-Jones, or else from the same source he got it from, then it shows you this:

1772    HobXXII:6    Missa Sancti Nicolai   G   S-A-T-B, Chorus, 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, Strings & Continuo (Organ)


But in the New Grove Haydn, which is more in depth version wise, Georg Feder (The Prince, really, of such things) tells us that the original autograph manuscript that Haydn sent to B & H in 1802 had this:

6   6   Missa Sancti Nicolai (Nikolaimesse; 6/4-Takt-Messe), G   S, A, T, B, 4vv, 2 ob, 2 hn, (2 tpt, timp), str, bc (org)   1772   EK, A   L xxiii/1, 270; HW xxiii/1b, 105   in HV as Missa St Josephi; cf no.5; NOTE:  tpts and timp in authentic MS copy (E)*, 1802

*Note (GB) - The (E) here means that the autograph was in the hand of Johann Ellsler, who was Haydn's copyist for years, the son of Haydn's copyist for years before that, and who also compiled the very late catalog of works with Haydn  (<>1805). IOW = Authentic

So, there actually was trumpets and timpani in the original OR when Haydn sent the manuscript to B&H in 1802, he added them at that time. It would be difficult to tell because usually (and probably here too) the T & T parts were copied separately from the score so that places that didn't have T & T could easily ignore them.   




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Now playing:


Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 5th mvmt - Adagio

[Uncle Connie]

Quickly for the moment, gotta go have a tooth filled....

St.Nicolai - My source had been Landon (Chronicle II:251-2) but he treats this mass rather perfunctorily and, though he mentions the (E) score you cite, says that the one with added instrumental parts was different and seems to imply that it was only mentioned at all because it was found in the same collection as the Elssler one.  (He does however state that there are also trombone parts - another nod toward Michael Haydn's practices.  If my recording adds trombones, I don't hear them - even the trumpets and timpani are extremely discreet.)  Landon does reference Faber but doesn't go to the trouble of connecting all the dots.  You have done so.  Thank you!

I'm well aware that the T&T parts were frequently put on other paper and separated, and I know why.  My memory of old LPs extends to the first-ever recording of Symphony 33, by (of all things) the MGM Orchestra, Arthur Winograd conducting - but no T&T because the parts, on separate sheets of course, hadn't been tracked down.  By the time Dorati and Märzendorfer got around to their near-simultaneous complete sets, the parts had apparently been found, as they were used by both.  I do also recall that in the appendix to Landon's 'Symphonies' (1955) a facsimile reconstruction was printed, presumably in response to Winograd's rather glaring omission.

The mystery mass by either Haydn or Mozart or Wenzel Pichl (mentioned in a Prague score) or someone else:  The key is C Major, the disc is from 2002, and while I still have no idea how to upload a photo of the booklet, maybe a link to the ArkivMusic listing would be of some small use:
       http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Mario-Schwarz/Conductor/89303-3

I note that in my original post I misspelled "Schwarz" by adding a 'T' - damn!, I really thought I had checked that specific point!  Oh well....

Off to my dentist, whose chief customer I seem to be these past few years.  Genetics have been very kind to me otherwise, but not in the teeth department.  'Bye.  See ya later.

P.S. Back to separated T&T parts - does anyone happen to recall that in his notes at some point - Sym. 90 perhaps? - Roy Goodman made a remark that he was going to "dispense" with those instruments in cases where they weren't in the main score?  It was that statement, and that statement alone, that completely turned me off to Goodman's series, and I never did bother collecting it.  Arrogance!  And lack of understanding as to WHY those instuments were kept apart....