Haydn's Haus

[mc ukrneal]

A video was mentioned here not too long ago: In Search of Haydn: A Phil Grabsky Film (2012). This is now $25 at Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1. Thought this might be the best place to mention it.

[Gurn Blanston]

A video was mentioned here not too long ago: In Search of Haydn: A Phil Grabsky Film (2012). This is now $25 at Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1. Thought this might be the best place to mention it.

We strongly recommend it, highly entertaining. Cheap at twice the price.

[Karl Henning]

Aye, 'tis a keeper.

[kishnevi]

Yes, indeed they are. And they were the easy ones, since we know they go between the epistle and the gospel.   But in addition to these, also there were being used concertos and symphonies. These, at first blush, are a bit harder to insert. However, I have gathered a bit of info.

Wow, Neumann did that? That's wonderful. I had figured out which sonatas went with which masses quite some time ago and done that on my own. Haydn will be more challenging, but do-able, I think.

Boy, I'm glad it's you that likes Bach.

Slight corrective--Neumann only recorded nine of the "church sonatas".   But he also recorded two offertoriums and a gradual which he inserted into the liturgically appropriate place as well.

[jlaurson]

Haydn (Re) Releases:


J. Haydn et al.
"Haydn ...out of Hainburg
A.Holzapfel / dolce risonanza
Gramola
[mp3 only in the US?]
German link, UK link

Salve Regina XXIIIb:2, Pieces for small organ XIX: 12-13
+ works by Albrechtsberger, Fux, M.Haydn, Reutter




J. Haydn et al.
Haydn alla Zingarese
Paul Gulda, R.G.Banda et al.
Gramola
Music Classic edition: German link, UK link
Re-release from a 1993 recording, out on CD on the "musica classic" label (Denon?)

Excerpts with gypsy influences from Haydn's oevre interspersed with traditional Hungarian / Gypsy music.

[kishnevi]

I found the Minetti Quartet recording that was mentioned:

Haydn: String Quartets No. 51, 59, "The Rider" And 64

[asin]B001TD1XPI[/asin]

Listening right now.  Out of the gate they are not bringing as much energy to the music as META4, which when you hear the recording, and if you are like me, you will be struck immediately by a sense of focus and excitement from the very first note.  I'll be interested in what Sarge thinks after he's heard them.

The Minetti is not shabby by any stretch, actually, this recording (so far) sounds wonderful.  They take a more lyrical approach with solo playing that is some of the tenderest I've heard - but since there was a comparison made, for me, META4 is the more interesting performance of Haydn.

Received the Minetti CD today, and have it on now.   I'm finding they play with appropriate vim and vigor when vim and vigor is called for,    but I'm especially struck by the lyricism of their playing--when Papa says "cantabile"  they obviously take him seriously.  If anything they play these sections a little too much on the romantic side,  but not enough to actually harm the performance--or at least it works for me.

One day I'll have to do a match up of my MI recordings of the quartets to see who does what better than whom, but at the moment I'm quite pleased with the Minettis.

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, well here's something that I hope will open discussion. I know there are a lot of sacred music lovers here, and this is pertinent to you. But I also hope that people (such as myself) who aren't quite so much, will find this interesting enough to look into the music a bit more.

In the course of our discussion of Haydn's music we have touched on a variety of topics that were still a mystery to me. One of those was the way that secular music was incorporated into the celebration of the mass at that time. Where does one fit a symphony or concerto into a mass? After all, it has no liturgical significance. Or maybe it does and we just don't realize. ??

In any case, I decided to do some research and see if I could discover this out. It goes without saying that nowhere in any of my reading does it say 'and then after the Credo, we play the first movement of the symphony in c minor...'     That would be way too easy, and here in the Haydn Haus, we don't roll that way. It's the hard way or the highway here, baby!   

The first question that I wanted to get answered was 'how many parts of the mass are there?'. And the answer, of course, was 'it depends'. But after various false starts, I came up with a solution that satisfied me. The level that I needed to start at, the top level as it were, is divided into two parts. They would be the 'Ordinary' and the 'Proper'. I don't know about you, but Ordinary seems very... common to me. And actually, that's exactly what it is. It contains the six parts that are common to every mass, which is to say, they are what makes a Full Mass. Of course, the two parts are completely interwoven. Nothing is easy!

They didn't all start out being the ordinary at the same time, but over the centuries, and by the time we are interested in (second half of the 18th Century in Vienna), the Ordinary consisted in the Kyrie, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. When you buy a recording of a mass from this era, no matter how many parts each of these is subdivided into, these six parts will be represented (of course, Requiems are a special case. Let's leave them out of this for now).

The prevailing model for masses at the time was the Neapolitan Mass. As you can imagine, being from Baroque Naples, the opera capital of the world, these masses were rather ornate. And of course, in pre-Josephinian Vienna, gilding the lily was standard procedure. So in a big mass, you would have your 6 parts of the Ordinary divided into a total of as many as 18 parts in Haydn's Mass in C, Hob 22_05. This was Haydn's largest mass. However, it didn't set any records for size in general, just for him.

I will follow this with a list of the parts that would be played at a typical Missa longa, or what we would call at other times and places a Missa solemnis. Parts of the Ordinary are in CAPS, while parts or the Proper, which changed with every day of the Liturgical Calendar, are in lower case. In parentheses I put a typical piece or movement of secular music that would have been played at that point.  This might be a good time to point out that what we call Church Symphonies really were Church Symphonies!  Different ones for different times of year, like Lamentation (#26) or La Passione (#49) probably for Holy Week. Some of these already don't have a minuet movement, but for those that do, it wasn't used in church, and probably was added to make the work more flexible in its uses outside of church.

•   Opening music:  Organ solos and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares
•   Music (Ordinary): a 'Tantum ergo' or an 'Asperges me'
•   Music (Proper) and SPOKEN PRAYER: Introit simultaneously with penitential prayers
•   Music KYRIE:
       o   Kyrie eleison
       o   Christe eleison
       o   Kyrie eleison
•   Music GLORIA
       o   Gloria in excelsis Deo
       o   Laudamus te
       o   Gratias agimus tibi
       o   Domine Deus, Rex coelestis
       o   Qui tollis peccata Mundi
       o   Quoniam tu solus sanctus
       o   Cum Sancto Spiritu
•   Prayer: Collect
•   Reading: Epistle
•   Music: Gradual  (1st movement of a symphony)
•   Music: Alleluia or Tract
•   Spoken: Gospel and Homily (Sermon)
•   Instrumental music: Trumpet & Timpani fanfares (Cool!)
•   Music CREDO:
       o   Credo in unum Deum
       o   Et incarnatus est
       o   Et resurrexit
•   Music & PRAYER: Offertory  (2nd movement of symphony )
•   Prayer & Secret (Private Prayer)
•   Prayer: Preface (Public Prayer)
•   MUSIC: SANCTUS
       o   Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
       o   Pleni sunt coeli
•   BENEDICTUS
•   PRAYER: Eucharist Prayer
•   PRAYER: Lord's Prayer
•   MUSIC: AGNUS DEI
       o   Agnus Dei
       o   Dona nobis pacem
•   Music: Communion  (3rd movement of symphony (Finale really, since minuet (if any) was removed))
•   Prayer: Post Communion
•   MUSIC: Dismissal ('Ite, Missa est')
•   SPOKEN: Closing Blessing
•   Music: organ postludium and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares

Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.

I want to point out here that I collected information from several places and consolidated it into this list. So any mistakes or misunderstandings are my own. I hope that some of you whose knowledge is more in depth than my own will take this opportunity to expand this discussion. For myself, I intend to take a Missa brevis from the early period and couple it with an organ concerto in the appropriate sequence and see how it sounds. Also, it should be noted that it was not unusual to start off with a Te Deum either in the event that the mass was celebratory. And to make a more expanded and/or unusual (once a year) work, the entire Stabat Mater was played instead of the Tract on the Feast of the Seven Dolors, which must have been quite an experience!!

[Leon]

Received the Minetti CD today, and have it on now.   I'm finding they play with appropriate vim and vigor when vim and vigor is called for,    but I'm especially struck by the lyricism of their playing--when Papa says "cantabile"  they obviously take him seriously.  If anything they play these sections a little too much on the romantic side,  but not enough to actually harm the performance--or at least it works for me.

One day I'll have to do a match up of my MI recordings of the quartets to see who does what better than whom, but at the moment I'm quite pleased with the Minettis.

I agree completely on the lyricism and all I meant with my comment about you describe as "vim and vigor" is not that they lack those qualities, but that they do not bring as much of them to the performance as do the META4 quartet.  But then again, it is not an altogether fair comparison since they are playing different works. 

I'd love to hear the Minetti Q. do the Op. 55 set.

[Leon]

In Search of Haydn arrived in yesterday's mail and watched it last night: what a wonderful film! Most of the performances were PI, I loved seeing all those gut strings and period winds as well as the buildings where Haydn would have heard them played. 

This DVD along with the Beghin set are all round two of the best purchases of 2012.

[Karl Henning]

(* pounds the [antique] table *)

[Leo K.]

OK, well here's something that I hope will open discussion. I know there are a lot of sacred music lovers here, and this is pertinent to you. But I also hope that people (such as myself) who aren't quite so much, will find this interesting enough to look into the music a bit more.

In the course of our discussion of Haydn's music we have touched on a variety of topics that were still a mystery to me. One of those was the way that secular music was incorporated into the celebration of the mass at that time. Where does one fit a symphony or concerto into a mass? After all, it has no liturgical significance. Or maybe it does and we just don't realize. ??

In any case, I decided to do some research and see if I could discover this out. It goes without saying that nowhere in any of my reading does it say 'and then after the Credo, we play the first movement of the symphony in c minor...'     That would be way too easy, and here in the Haydn Haus, we don't roll that way. It's the hard way or the highway here, baby!   

The first question that I wanted to get answered was 'how many parts of the mass are there?'. And the answer, of course, was 'it depends'. But after various false starts, I came up with a solution that satisfied me. The level that I needed to start at, the top level as it were, is divided into two parts. They would be the 'Ordinary' and the 'Proper'. I don't know about you, but Ordinary seems very... common to me. And actually, that's exactly what it is. It contains the six parts that are common to every mass, which is to say, they are what makes a Full Mass. Of course, the two parts are completely interwoven. Nothing is easy!

They didn't all start out being the ordinary at the same time, but over the centuries, and by the time we are interested in (second half of the 18th Century in Vienna), the Ordinary consisted in the Kyrie, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. When you buy a recording of a mass from this era, no matter how many parts each of these is subdivided into, these six parts will be represented (of course, Requiems are a special case. Let's leave them out of this for now).

The prevailing model for masses at the time was the Neapolitan Mass. As you can imagine, being from Baroque Naples, the opera capital of the world, these masses were rather ornate. And of course, in pre-Josephinian Vienna, gilding the lily was standard procedure. So in a big mass, you would have your 6 parts of the Ordinary divided into a total of as many as 18 parts in Haydn's Mass in C, Hob 22_05. This was Haydn's largest mass. However, it didn't set any records for size in general, just for him.

I will follow this with a list of the parts that would be played at a typical Missa longa, or what we would call at other times and places a Missa solemnis. Parts of the Ordinary are in CAPS, while parts or the Proper, which changed with every day of the Liturgical Calendar, are in lower case. In parentheses I put a typical piece or movement of secular music that would have been played at that point.  This might be a good time to point out that what we call Church Symphonies really were Church Symphonies!  Different ones for different times of year, like Lamentation (#26) or La Passione (#49) probably for Holy Week. Some of these already don't have a minuet movement, but for those that do, it wasn't used in church, and probably was added to make the work more flexible in its uses outside of church.

•   Opening music:  Organ solos and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares
•   Music (Ordinary): a 'Tantum ergo' or an 'Asperges me'
•   Music (Proper) and SPOKEN PRAYER: Introit simultaneously with penitential prayers
•   Music KYRIE:
       o   Kyrie eleison
       o   Christe eleison
       o   Kyrie eleison
•   Music GLORIA
       o   Gloria in excelsis Deo
       o   Laudamus te
       o   Gratias agimus tibi
       o   Domine Deus, Rex coelestis
       o   Qui tollis peccata Mundi
       o   Quoniam tu solus sanctus
       o   Cum Sancto Spiritu
•   Prayer: Collect
•   Reading: Epistle
•   Music: Gradual  (1st movement of a symphony)
•   Music: Alleluia or Tract
•   Spoken: Gospel and Homily (Sermon)
•   Instrumental music: Trumpet & Timpani fanfares (Cool!)
•   Music CREDO:
       o   Credo in unum Deum
       o   Et incarnatus est
       o   Et resurrexit
•   Music & PRAYER: Offertory  (2nd movement of symphony )
•   Prayer & Secret (Private Prayer)
•   Prayer: Preface (Public Prayer)
•   MUSIC: SANCTUS
       o   Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
       o   Pleni sunt coeli
•   BENEDICTUS
•   PRAYER: Eucharist Prayer
•   PRAYER: Lord's Prayer
•   MUSIC: AGNUS DEI
       o   Agnus Dei
       o   Dona nobis pacem
•   Music: Communion  (3rd movement of symphony (Finale really, since minuet (if any) was removed))
•   Prayer: Post Communion
•   MUSIC: Dismissal ('Ite, Missa est')
•   SPOKEN: Closing Blessing
•   Music: organ postludium and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares

Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.

I want to point out here that I collected information from several places and consolidated it into this list. So any mistakes or misunderstandings are my own. I hope that some of you whose knowledge is more in depth than my own will take this opportunity to expand this discussion. For myself, I intend to take a Missa brevis from the early period and couple it with an organ concerto in the appropriate sequence and see how it sounds. Also, it should be noted that it was not unusual to start off with a Te Deum either in the event that the mass was celebratory. And to make a more expanded and/or unusual (once a year) work, the entire Stabat Mater was played instead of the Tract on the Feast of the Seven Dolors, which must have been quite an experience!!

Excellant research Gurn! I really enjoyed reading this, the subject of secular music within the high mass in the 18th Century is a subject I haven't looked into, so thanks!

Along with keyboard literature of the 18th century, my other passion is collecting masses from this era, and your overview is most excellant and I'm sure a fine introduction to those new in discovering the music of the mass.

On a personal note, the music of the 18th Century mass influenced my converting to Catholicism some years ago. I've always been interested in the study of the liturgy and the history of this ritual. There are still parishes that hold the old latin mass, although, it's not quite the spectacle as  you describe in the 18th century! I like the latin mass because of the beauty of the ritual, and appreciate the history and it's connection to my favorite liturgical music of the 18th century.  I suppose there are still special masses on this scale in Rome, but not where I live!

[Gurn Blanston]

Excellant research Gurn! I really enjoyed reading this, the subject of secular music within the high mass in the 18th Century is a subject I haven't looked into, so thanks!

Along with keyboard literature of the 18th century, my other passion is collecting masses from this era, and your overview is most excellant and I'm sure a fine introduction to those new in discovering the music of the mass.

On a personal note, the music of the 18th Century mass influenced my converting to Catholicism some years ago. I've always been interested in the study of the liturgy and the history of this ritual. There are still parishes that hold the old latin mass, although, it's not quite the spectacle as  you describe in the 18th century! I like the latin mass because of the beauty of the ritual, and appreciate the history and it's connection to my favorite liturgical music of the 18th century.  I suppose there are still special masses on this scale in Rome, but not where I live!

Thanks, Leo. Pleased you benefited from it. I suspect I am substantially older than you, and when I was youngish, all masses were in Latin. I was an altar boy and knew every bit of the masses by heart. Frequently served on weekdays before school, which was when the feast days were celebrated, and knew the Proper's for those too. Despite never being a believer, I hugely enjoyed taking part in the liturgy.  Our parish had a great organ and choir too, which made it that much more interesting. When the Latin liturgy was junked in the mid-'60's, there was no longer any reason for me to hang around, and so I didn't. But to get to partake in something like the Großeorgelsolomesse I would go back again today! 0:)

[SonicMan46]

........................
Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.........................

Hi Gurn - just getting back to the forum after a short mountain vacation -

Thanks for the discussion on the mass - cannot really add much more to the topic regarding your points concerning incorporation of a composer's secular music into sacred compositions, but I suspect in the Baroque & Classical periods using one's music (or transcriptions or other composer's music 'altered' as needed) interchangeably was quite common; of course, we all know this fact but it does beg an answer as to 'how often' the practice was done? 

Now as a boy when I lived in Toledo (until the age of 12 y/o - we moved to southern Michigan near the Ohio border), I attended a Catholic school (St. Anne's) and being in a church and hearing the mass in Latin (and smelling the incense) was indeed an inspiring experience for a young lad.  Having visited many of the famous cathedrals in Europe over the years, I can only imagine the feelings of a person in those times going to mass, being inside those magnificent buildings, and listening to the accompanying music - INDEED, an awe inspiring spiritual experience that transported these people to another plane in their lives!

[Uncle Connie]

Much impressed, even bowled over, by the research and information on the mass.  Having no direct experience with the Catholic service I would not have known exactly what was supposed to have been sequenced where; I just knew, vaguely, that there was a sequence, and on High Holy days and various other solemn occasions, it was L-O-N-G.  (On the other hand, allegedly the telescoping of texts in the Missa Brevis was designed specifically to keep things SHORT on Low Mass days; one explanation for the telescoping says it was supposed to get people out of cold unheated churches more quickly in winter.  Apocryphal?  Probably.)

In common with Leo K. (but in my case for no known reason related to actual belief) I have a 'thing' for the liturgical music of this era, going back to the man who appears to be Leo's great love, J.A. Hasse.  But more than anyone else, it's the brothers Haydn of course.  And in that regard I went poking around my books and recordings and discovered that, with Michael Haydn at least, it is possible to in effect recreate the musical components of one such solemn mass in all its (choral at least) parts.  It's this disc:

[asin]B00003GA98[/asin]


which looks maybe to be out of print in the US but is still readily had in the UK and Germany, if that helps anyone.  Too bad this picture doesn't show you the back paper, because this is what they've done:

Principally it is the Missa Sancta Theresiae, MH 796.  (The disc calls it 797; it's a technical point.  796 is the Mass as originally written; 797 is a replacement version of one section only, which is used here.  Call it either number, I'd say.)  Then they insert the Gradual MH 798, the Offertory MH 799 and end with the Te Deum MH 800, all of which were written within a couple of weeks and are clearly intended as a "set."  (Why, you even get the original version of that replaced part of the original mass, because Haydn re-used the old version as the end of the Te Deum.)  All together then, they give you a sense of the vocal portion of the day's events, and if you wanted to slip in someone's little Sinfonia (probably not Michael's, as at the time of writing this mass he hadn't written a symphony in 14 years) or an appropriate concerto, fine, that's what programming menus on CD changers are made for. 

You can also do it with another "set," MH 826 (Missa Sancti Francisci Seraphici) with its attachments, MH 827 the Offertory, MH 828 the Gradual, and MH 829 the Te Deum - only in this case unfortunately you have to buy four different CDs, as no two parts have ever appeared on the same disc. 

And then at the other end of his career there's the limited possibility of this CD:


[asin]B00008GQAJ[/asin]


Two very early masses and the Te Deum intended for the second of them; but there are no other things from these earliest days to fit in, so either they weren't used in the churches of the far-off provincial town in which he worked at the time (Grosswardein, now Oradea in Romania), or someone else's were borrowed.  But in this case at least there are a few instrumental pieces contemporaneous that could very easily be fit into the day's adventure to at least closely approximate what might have been played. 

[SonicMan46]

In Search of Haydn arrived in yesterday's mail and watched it last night: what a wonderful film! Most of the performances were PI, I loved seeing all those gut strings and period winds as well as the buildings where Haydn would have heard them played. 

This DVD along with the Beghin set are all round two of the best purchases of 2012.

Hi Arnold - thanks for re-acquainting me w/ this series; I watched In Search of Beethoven as a Netflix rental (the other two are not available there at the moment!) - but I would be quite interested in seeing (or obtaining) In Search of Mozart and In Search of Haydn - both are available on Amazon for $26 each - a little steep but I have a $25 Amazon gift card that has been sitting next to me for more than a week; now thinking of these as 'buy one and get one free' or as 'half price' makes more sense!  Dave 

 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Gurn - just getting back to the forum after a short mountain vacation -

Thanks for the discussion on the mass - cannot really add much more to the topic regarding your points concerning incorporation of a composer's secular music into sacred compositions, but I suspect in the Baroque & Classical periods using one's music (or transcriptions or other composer's music 'altered' as needed) interchangeably was quite common; of course, we all know this fact but it does beg an answer as to 'how often' the practice was done? 

Now as a boy when I lived in Toledo (until the age of 12 y/o - we moved to southern Michigan near the Ohio border), I attended a Catholic school (St. Anne's) and being in a church and hearing the mass in Latin (and smelling the incense) was indeed an inspiring experience for a young lad.  Having visited many of the famous cathedrals in Europe over the years, I can only imagine the feelings of a person in those times going to mass, being inside those magnificent buildings, and listening to the accompanying music - INDEED, an awe inspiring spiritual experience that transported these people to another plane in their lives!

Hey, Dave. Hope you had a nice time. I've been working...

How often was it done?  As nearly as I can determine, it was done, to some degree more or less, every day! Bearing in mind, of course, that a full symphony may have only been used at Sunday High Mass (as we used to call it), while in a daily situation, more likely an Epistle Sonata, an Organ Concerto and/or a suitable motet (with lyrics that highlighted the saint whose Feast Day it was) were most likely used. But I haven't read anything that leads me to belive that very mass was like this to some degree! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Much impressed, even bowled over, by the research and information on the mass.  Having no direct experience with the Catholic service I would not have known exactly what was supposed to have been sequenced where; I just knew, vaguely, that there was a sequence, and on High Holy days and various other solemn occasions, it was L-O-N-G.  (On the other hand, allegedly the telescoping of texts in the Missa Brevis was designed specifically to keep things SHORT on Low Mass days; one explanation for the telescoping says it was supposed to get people out of cold unheated churches more quickly in winter.  Apocryphal?  Probably.)

In common with Leo K. (but in my case for no known reason related to actual belief) I have a 'thing' for the liturgical music of this era, going back to the man who appears to be Leo's great love, J.A. Hasse.  But more than anyone else, it's the brothers Haydn of course.  And in that regard I went poking around my books and recordings and discovered that, with Michael Haydn at least, it is possible to in effect recreate the musical components of one such solemn mass in all its (choral at least) parts.  It's this disc:

[asin]B00003GA98[/asin]


which looks maybe to be out of print in the US but is still readily had in the UK and Germany, if that helps anyone.  Too bad this picture doesn't show you the back paper, because this is what they've done:

Principally it is the Missa Sancta Theresiae, MH 796.  (The disc calls it 797; it's a technical point.  796 is the Mass as originally written; 797 is a replacement version of one section only, which is used here.  Call it either number, I'd say.)  Then they insert the Gradual MH 798, the Offertory MH 799 and end with the Te Deum MH 800, all of which were written within a couple of weeks and are clearly intended as a "set."  (Why, you even get the original version of that replaced part of the original mass, because Haydn re-used the old version as the end of the Te Deum.)  All together then, they give you a sense of the vocal portion of the day's events, and if you wanted to slip in someone's little Sinfonia (probably not Michael's, as at the time of writing this mass he hadn't written a symphony in 14 years) or an appropriate concerto, fine, that's what programming menus on CD changers are made for. 

You can also do it with another "set," MH 826 (Missa Sancti Francisci Seraphici) with its attachments, MH 827 the Offertory, MH 828 the Gradual, and MH 829 the Te Deum - only in this case unfortunately you have to buy four different CDs, as no two parts have ever appeared on the same disc. 

And then at the other end of his career there's the limited possibility of this CD:


[asin]B00008GQAJ[/asin]


Two very early masses and the Te Deum intended for the second of them; but there are no other things from these earliest days to fit in, so either they weren't used in the churches of the far-off provincial town in which he worked at the time (Grosswardein, now Oradea in Romania), or someone else's were borrowed.  But in this case at least there are a few instrumental pieces contemporaneous that could very easily be fit into the day's adventure to at least closely approximate what might have been played.

That's excellent info, Conrad. It is exactly what I had in mind when I started down this road. Different Haydn, of course, but a very capable one. Salzburg was famous for his masses, along with Mozart's, so there is so much to choose from. If I might make a suggestion for your particular interests, and exactly what I am planning to do myself. I would say that the 1st 'Missa Celensis' (in C major), which was completed and performed in 1773, and the Symphony #52 in c minor from 1771, which is possibly Haydn's most 'Fire & Brimstone' Church Symphony (also, possibly, his last one) would be a perfect match for each other. 

[Uncle Connie]

52 - yes, I like it.  Very different in mood from the Mass but certainly underlines the complex theological elements that keep butting into each other throughout the Mass ordinary. 

Another thought if what you want is blazing trumpets to go with the ones that are already there for the Mass, might be 56.  50 I don't think works nearly as well, but isn't it pretty well agreed that 50 is theatre music to begin with? 

And one more idea that I had, which goes with the original start date of the Mass - 30.  I do so love that little thing, I really do, and in this case I believe we could make a case for the minuet fitting in also - not as a dance of course, but simply as a 3/4 time interlude, horns and oboes giving one of those beery sonorities that Haydn popped in every so often.  (The best of which is the trio of the minuet in 80, but that's too late for this Mass.)

A lot of other ideas are probably very much worth considering.  I'm sure I'll think of a couple more the second after I click 'post.'

And now (change of subject) - I'm probably going to sign off for three weeks while I go have a vacation - if I have time tomorrow (Monday) I'll check in, but after that it's up in the air and way far away....

[Gurn Blanston]

52 - yes, I like it.  Very different in mood from the Mass but certainly underlines the complex theological elements that keep butting into each other throughout the Mass ordinary. 

Another thought if what you want is blazing trumpets to go with the ones that are already there for the Mass, might be 56.  50 I don't think works nearly as well, but isn't it pretty well agreed that 50 is theatre music to begin with? 

And one more idea that I had, which goes with the original start date of the Mass - 30.  I do so love that little thing, I really do, and in this case I believe we could make a case for the minuet fitting in also - not as a dance of course, but simply as a 3/4 time interlude, horns and oboes giving one of those beery sonorities that Haydn popped in every so often.  (The best of which is the trio of the minuet in 80, but that's too late for this Mass.)

A lot of other ideas are probably very much worth considering.  I'm sure I'll think of a couple more the second after I click 'post.'

And now (change of subject) - I'm probably going to sign off for three weeks while I go have a vacation - if I have time tomorrow (Monday) I'll check in, but after that it's up in the air and way far away....

Yes, it's the blazing trumpets that I want for sure. Outside of the symphonies though, I can't think of any music that leaps to mind to be suitable for just fanfares and little preludes and postludes. That, and some solo organ music too. Of course there is some, but I was thinking about staying with this composer throughout, which is more challenging. I bet that there is some Werner (ideally) or Hasse (nearly as good) out there is I look round enough. Hmmm....

Well, 3 weeks is a long time. Have fun on your vacation, get in some good relaxation and of course, some discreet girl-watching ( 0:) ) . See you down the road.



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Now playing:

L'Estro Armonico \ Derek Solomons - Hob 01_046 Symphony in B 2nd mvmt - Poco adagio

[Uncle Connie]

Yes, it's the blazing trumpets that I want for sure. Outside of the symphonies though, I can't think of any music that leaps to mind to be suitable for just fanfares and little preludes and postludes. That, and some solo organ music too. Of course there is some, but I was thinking about staying with this composer throughout, which is more challenging. I bet that there is some Werner (ideally) or Hasse (nearly as good) out there is I look round enough. Hmmm....

Well, 3 weeks is a long time. Have fun on your vacation, get in some good relaxation and of course, some discreet girl-watching ( 0:) ) . See you down the road.

Only Werner I've ever come across was two little partitas on a disc with some Haydn things, the Te Deum and something else cond. Karl Richter I think, on an ancient LP (partitas were for organ and strings) - and a Requiem which is rather stiff to say the least.  (The Requiem CD is filled out by another setting, by Emperor Leopold I, 1640-1705, which is really quite fine and fascinating.  A real, genuine, talented Royal.  Apart from Louis Ferdinand in Beethoven's day I can't think of another Royal who was really a serious contender in the music world.)  Even if we could get the Partita disc today, memory tells me we wouldn't much want it. 

I think my idea about Sym. 30 won't work, not without some tweaking.  I forgot about the flute.....

Hasse abounds on my shelves, but every single note is vocal music.  I think I need to invest in some instrumental things.  Ideas, Leo K. (or anyone)?

And so I will depart now, and watch the Mädchens, and report back on my adventures when next we meet.  Methinks you'll enjoy some of the reports of my travels, but they're secret for now (just in case they turn out to be NOT interesting, I won't have committed myself).