Haydn's Haus

[kishnevi]

Nota bene: the 10 CD "Andreas Staier Edtion" box DHM released last year contains two of those Haydn discs, the first two posted by Gurn (iow,  not the one titled "Variations and Sonatas")

[Karl Henning]

I've always liked the version on this disk;


but I got the other to hear what someone else might have to say. It is rather unique. Somewhere (1800?) in the chronology I told the story behind it. Rather a strange and amusing tale, really.

Yes, right in here.

[kishnevi]

What is this? A whole month has gone by with silence in The House?

Well, at any rate,  I'm now giving a first listen to the Quatour Mosaiques recordings I haven't yet heard--for tonight, Opus 20, to be followed by Opus 33 and the 7 Last Words tomorrow or the next day.

Listening to the finale of No. 5 of this set (in f minor, the one to which Hoboken gave the listing of III:35), I was struck by a similarity.  Not only is this movement a fugue, but the main theme has (in my ears at least) a strong resemblance to the root theme  of Bach's Kunst der Fuge--as if Haydn had taken Bach's theme and used his own variation to ground another fugue upon.  Perhaps a tribute from one master to another.

Which leads to the question--
How familiar was Haydn with Bach, especially with such works as KdF?  Could he have had access to KdF, then or later?  Is there any hard evidence one way or another?

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey, Jeffrey. Interesting question. Not one that is addressed specifically in anything that I've read. I fear I will have to take the more general route and say that in the second half of the 18th century in the German lands, virtually all trained composers and most trained keyboardists were readily and intimately familiar with The 48, as they called the 2 books of the Well-Tempered Klavier. Anything that they knew beyond that would be on an individual basis. On the one hand, northern German composers would have a better chance to know him, but they were in a reactionary mode at the time and really, the only Bach they cared about was C.P.E..  So I wouldn't rule it out altogether, but there isn't much documented evidence for it either.

C.P.E. was a big influence for Haydn though. So indirectly maybe...

[Leon]

After months of waiting, today I came home to find the copy of Haydn and the Performance of Rhetoric I had ordered.  Looks really good.

[Gurn Blanston]

After months of waiting, today I came home to find the copy of Haydn and the Performance of Rhetoric I had ordered.  Looks really good.

Ah, excellent. I am quite curious how you like that. I don't have the book yet, but I have the initial essay that Beghin wrote to present the concept. I am intrigued by the idea, although some of the musical aspects are a bit over my head. Plus there are several other essays in that book which might make it more easily understood. Pray keep us apprised.

[Karl Henning]

Hard on the heels of completing my own set of duos (two clarinets), I am plunging into listening to "Papa's" string duos; exquisite!

[Gurn Blanston]

Hard on the heels of completing my own set of duos (two clarinets), I am plunging into listening to "Papa's" string duos; exquisite!

Yes, I really enjoy those sonatas. I think the ones you have are the proper scoring of Violin & Viola, I also have them scored for Violin & Cello which the depth of the cello adds an entirely different aspect to them. That scoring (not by Haydn) has always been very popular too; it has existed nearly as long as the original! Such was publishing in the 1770's.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I really enjoy those sonatas. I think the ones you have are the proper scoring of Violin & Viola, I also have them scored for Violin & Cello which the depth of the cello adds an entirely different aspect to them. That scoring (not by Haydn) has always been very popular too; it has existed nearly as long as the original! Such was publishing in the 1770's.

Ties in with Ayn Rand's theme in The Fountainhead, don't it? ; )

[snyprrr]

Op. 50

Tokyo SQ vs. Nomos SQ


Well, I finally got the DG Tokyo. I primed by listening to the Nomos over the previous week, but I certainly didn't know what to expect. I've felt that the Nomos reading is just so absolutely wonderful, and crisp and clean, that I couldn't imagine how the Tokyo would sound.

Well, the recording is from late 1973, and, judging by the funny picture of the group, they were a bit younger then! (there is some definite ''70s hair' going on there, haha) There is also a lady, so, this isn't the grouping I'm more familiar with (all I have by them right now is the Takemitsu/Barber/Britten cd on RCA).

Then I noticed the instruments they were playing (four Amatis from the 1670s),... and then I heard the sound! And, hmm, what a sound. They reminded me no less than of The Smithson Quartet, the HIP unit: the Tokyo playing here might be the most delicate playing I've ever heard; you would think it was Mozart.

After hearing the Tokyo here, I no longer give a r@tZ@@z about anything HIP. They sound HIP enough for me here,... or,... whatever,... WHATEVER!!,... I'm not arguing, haha!!


And the two recording perfectly complement one another. The Nomos seem to take the repeats, making for much longer quartets, so, hearing the Tokyo does make going through this most, can I say obtuse?, of Haydn's SQ sets, a little easier. I really have no criticisms to compare: they're both great sets,... and, I might add, don't really bother going anywhere else? If you can't get the Tokyo, the Nomos has to be a First Choice here. I know that the Lindsay recording is from the tail end of their career, and I heard some criticisms that they weren't their usual jolly selves in Op.50 (could be wrong).

The instruments in the Tokyo set really make a wonderful difference. There is definite TONE here, and, coupled with the Tokyo's ultra refined playing, I am remind of the semi-HIP playing and sound of a certain group on Collins playing Op.76 (was it the Alberti?, the Allegri?,... something with an 'A') which had cotton candy for instruments!

So, Gurn,... waddaya say?

[Gurn Blanston]

I love the Tokyo's Op 50. It has been called (and not just by me, but by people who actually know something) the greatest version ever put on record. I just don't like to listen to only one idea of how something should sound, so I listen to a variety of performances of this opus. I like them all, for different reasons, as it should be. But in a horrible world situation where I only could have one, it would be the Tokyo.

[kishnevi]

Ties in with Ayn Rand's theme in The Fountainhead, don't it? ; )

Not really; for one thing, "Papa" was, unlike the majority of Rand's characters, not a psychopath.    And to achieve a true parallel to Fountainhead,  you would need a situation in which the violin or viola part was substantially rewritten, not merely transposed or transcribed for another instrument, yet still be described as being Haydn's own work as it came from his hands.

[snyprrr]

I love the Tokyo's Op 50. It has been called (and not just by me, but by people who actually know something) the greatest version ever put on record. I just don't like to listen to only one idea of how something should sound, so I listen to a variety of performances of this opus. I like them all, for different reasons, as it should be. But in a horrible world situation where I only could have one, it would be the Tokyo.

But, the Tokyo ALSO point up how good the Nomos is, for they have particular insights, and deliver an ultra refined 'white' playing that is in perfect opposition to the Tokyo's more...mm... 'feminine' performance (and of course that doesn't mean anything 'weak', oh please! ). The Nomos are more etched in marble white; the Tokyo seem to have more golden 'haze' (though of course their playing, nor the recording, are... uh, hazy).

I don't think I heard the Festetics in Op.50, but that's another topic altogether, haha. But who does that leave? The Lindsays, the HIP Solomon on Hyperion (always interesting to hear), the Auryn, the Prazak, the Tatrai, the Kodaly (bland, or clean?), the Aeolian, and the LASQ.

It's nice to have a rare bit like Op.50, that has an end, and we can find the account. This is the first Haydn I've gotten in 3 years! The only set I'd like something in is Op.54 (another rare set; I've got the Endellon, very good but I'd like a second opinion). I was thinking of the Ysaye or the Lindsays.

[Karl Henning]

Gotta say I am digging Lenny's Haydn much more than (fifteen years ago) I should have thought likely.

Not really; for one thing, "Papa" was, unlike the majority of Rand's characters, not a psychopath.    And to achieve a true parallel to Fountainhead,  you would need a situation in which the violin or viola part was substantially rewritten, not merely transposed or transcribed for another instrument, yet still be described as being Haydn's own work as it came from his hands.

Many of your points well take. (Was Roark a psychopath?  He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.)

[Sergeant Rock]

Was Roark a psychopath?  He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.

Blowing up a building doesn't count? 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Blowing up a building doesn't count? 

Sarge

Nah, hell, that's just SOP in these times. 

[Karl Henning]

Blowing up a building doesn't count? 

He made sure the site was clear of people.  Awfully rational : )

[kishnevi]

Gotta say I am digging Lenny's Haydn much more than (fifteen years ago) I should have thought likely.

Many of your points well take. (Was Roark a psychopath?  He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.)

The movie version seems to have cleaned him up and made him more likeable.  Rand's description in the book makes him a much less likeable person, someone who has no sympathy for anyone else and very little interest in others, except to the extent that they can help his projects,  until he gets involved with Dominique.  Actually, she describes him as having "no theory of mind", although she doesn't use the phrase,  which is the current core of thinking about autistic people.  But if he's autistic, he is autistic to the point of being a psychopath.  This is the book, after all, in which the hero rapes the heroine.

But I was really thinking of Atlas Shrugged, in which there's only one major character who, if plopped down into real life on his or her own, would not be considered at least neurotic and perhaps psychotic.  The exception is Dagney's aide Eddie, and one can see how Rand thought of him when you consider that she abandons him in the middle of the desert and doesn't even hint at the possibility that Dagney or the other "heros" will try to save him in consideration of his personal loyalty and integrity.

I have no idea of how to turn this back into Haydn, so I'll stop here.

[Karl Henning]

The movie version seems to have cleaned him up and made him more likeable.

Hard not to find Gary Cooper likable; and he certainly imparts a positive construction on Roark's rough edges.

Haydn, though ... the nickname of La poule was not idly given. I'm tempted to play it at home and see how the parakeets respond.

I mentioned in the WAYLT thread that the development of the first movement provides a relatively rare instance of Lenny's control of the band slipping just "a hair bit" as we would say on West 95th Street.

[calyptorhynchus]

This is a good bargain, the complete Piano Trios played by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, for around $25 US/Aus

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Phoenix%2BEdition/161PHOENIX#download

Mp3 download that is.

I have a couple of disks of the Piano Trios, but wanted to listen to the rest. The sound on this recording is excellent, and the playing is good too!