Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

And of course, it should not surprise me that in Richter's day, the Opus numbers had not drifted off into their well-deserved obscurity, yet : )

[Bogey]

Speaking of catalogues, any fragments out there that deserve our attention Gurnsters?

[Bogey]

A survey of the piano sonatas now under way.  Disc #136 from the Brilliant Brick,
HOB XVI:41
HOB XVI:16
HOB XVI:2
HOB XVI:32
HOB XVI:46

All Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (Maene).

Worth a look here:

http://shelf3d.com/K1RTX7RopVg#Bart Van Oort - Fortepiano Dedication Concert (Solo Excerpts Highlight)

[Mandryka]

A survey of the piano sonatas now under way.  Disc #136 from the Brilliant Brick,
HOB XVI:41
HOB XVI:16
HOB XVI:2
HOB XVI:32
HOB XVI:46

All Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (Maene).

Worth a look here:

http://shelf3d.com/K1RTX7RopVg#Bart Van Oort - Fortepiano Dedication Concert (Solo Excerpts Highlight)

Hob 2 is one of my favourite sonatas by Haydn. Is this his earliest keyboard masterpiece?

Is it a harpsichord sonata? I guess there are no problems about playing it on a single keyboard.

Sv. Richter plays Hob 2 very nicely.

One sonata I've really started to get nto recently is Hob 36. Someone put me on to Bavouzet's performance, which is extremely refined. I think I prefer Beghin, especially in the first movement, despite (or maybe because of) the lumbering phrasing. The first movement especially seems to benefit from the colours of the older instrument. At first I thought Beghin's way with it was comedic, but now I'm not so sure.

[Gurn Blanston]

In his Virtual Haydn Tom Beghin records some ofthe music on instruments tuned unequally, including the Sauschneider Capriccio,which he writes about extensively in the liner notes, saying inter alia:


". . . a unique Capriccio on
the folk tune "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein," Hob. XVII :1 (1765). Standardization—
whether it relates to tuning, instrument, notation, rhetoric, or performance—is definitely
not the keyword here. . .

For the Capriccio, we deliberately chose to tune the harpsichord in a quarter-comma
mean tone temperament. This tuning, though referred to as the "old" system, was
still explained in an 1805 Viennese tuning manual. Certain extant organs or fretted
clavichords confirm that the temperament was used well into the eighteenth century.
The unavoidable "wolf's fifth" in our tuning is between E-flat and G-sharp. The pain, as
I play my first D-sharp, is excruciating. It's not the howling of a wolf, but (enough with
decorum!) the squealing of a pig."

And please, don't forget that the likelihood of the 'squealing pig' tuning being valid is strongly bolstered by the famous Haydn humor, since the full title of the thematic folk tune (in English) is 'It takes 8 strong men to castrate a hog'. Thus the squealing. If one doesn't know that, it strongly detracts from the joke.

[Gurn Blanston]

This famous Haydn humour that Gurn mentions. Is that how people saw him in his own time -- as a funny man? I really could do with a good book on his reception history.

Yes, it is. In his homeland it was much appreciated, since Austria was culturally like that. In Germany, he was either damned with faint praise or outright reviled as a clown. Any of his biographies will more or less discuss this. A book specifically dealing with his reception history will be harder to locate.

In The Cambridge Companion to Haydn there is an essay by Scott Burnham called Haydn & Humor that discusses in detail some of his musical jokes. I can't remember if it touches on things like "Acht Sauschneider..." or not. Gretchen Wheelock has a very highly regarded book that dwells specifically on Haydn and humor. I don't have it so I can't comment, but it is frequently cited. I would certainly expect to find something there.

Anyway, past discussions (usually involving Florestan) that deal with the audience for Haydn's music will point out that his audience 'got' his humor very much. Most of his audience today, probably less so, since a lot of musical water has passed under the bridge since then.

[Mandryka]

Yes, it is. In his homeland it was much appreciated, since Austria was culturally like that. In Germany, he was either damned with faint praise or outright reviled as a clown. Any of his biographies will more or less discuss this. A book specifically dealing with his reception history will be harder to locate.

In The Cambridge Companion to Haydn there is an essay by Scott Burnham called Haydn & Humor that discusses in detail some of his musical jokes. I can't remember if it touches on things like "Acht Sauschneider..." or not. Gretchen Wheelock has a very highly regarded book that dwells specifically on Haydn and humor. I don't have it so I can't comment, but it is frequently cited. I would certainly expect to find something there.

Anyway, past discussions (usually involving Florestan) that deal with the audience for Haydn's music will point out that his audience 'got' his humor very much. Most of his audience today, probably less so, since a lot of musical water has passed under the bridge since then.

I may well dig into this whole issue a bit. One of the things which attracts me to Haydn's music is the way he sometimes moves unexpectedly from poignancy to comedy. You can hear what I mean in the way Beghin plays Hob 20/I.

I can see that humour forms a central part of his musical personality, as long as it's acknowledged that he was using it to shock and surprise  rather than to amuse. In fact I'd always thought that contemporary criticism focused on Haydn's originality, the strangeness of his music, rather than the comedy. I know that the early biographers were keen to present Haydn as a happy old man with a genial sense of humour. But they weren't written until after he had died, and the authors may have had their own agendas about how they wanted the world to see Haydn the man, and that influenced what they said about his music.

[Gurn Blanston]

I may well dig into this whole issue a bit. One of the things which attracts me to Haydn's music is the way he sometimes moves unexpectedly from poignancy to comedy. You can hear what I mean in the way Beghin plays Hob 20/I.

I can see that humour forms a central part of his musical personality, as long as it's acknowledged that he was using it to shock and surprise  rather than to amuse. In fact I'd always thought that contemporary criticism focused on Haydn's originality, the strangeness of his music, rather than the comedy. I know that the early biographers were keen to present Haydn as a happy old man with a genial sense of humour. But they weren't written until after he had died, and the authors may have had their own agendas about how they wanted the world to see Haydn the man, and that influenced what they said about his music.

It is difficult to draw conclusions about what Haydn himself thought of his jokes. Obviously he knew it was coming, so he didn't share in the shock and awe which prevailed in the listeners, but their reactions amused the hell out of him. A couple of his contemporary biographers (Griesinger and Dies)  mention his habit of telling stories about things like that and still stopping and laughing about it even many years later. I agree with you about people with their own agendas putting slants on things that favor themselves or their own philosophies rather than those of who they are writing about. From what I have read about Haydn written by contemporary sources, I would say this;  he was genial and he had a sense of humor which was constantly on display. However, one of those things is not necessarily a modifier of the other. Just because the man is genial, doesn't mean his wit is.

Anyway, I think you will find it interesting to research this topic. Especially if you broaden it out beyond just the music itself to get a sense of the man. That will give you some context for enjoyment.

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn Baryton Octets

Some of the more interesting and least known works in Haydn's oeuvre belong in Hoboken 10, the works for Baryton and diverse instruments. Although it has been used as a catchall for baryton works that don't fit elsewhere, like the Duo for 2 Barytons and the wonderful Quintet for Baryton Trio & 2 Horns, the true stars of the category are the 7 'Divertimenti a otto voci' for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Viola, Cello & Violone. Composed in 1775, they represent several 'lasts' for Haydn;
   
   The last works for Baryton.
   The last time Haydn would use 'sonata di chiesa' form.
   The last works he composed for high horns.
   The last true divertimentos he wrote.

They were also a few beginnings;
   
   The first divertimenti in 15 years.
   The beginning of a new style of occasional music which would later include the works for lira organizzate among others.
   The first works (by Haydn and maybe by anyone) to use the lowest registers on the horn, the added textures of which would become a hallmark of his late works.

They were also among the very first legitimately published works (by Artaria in 1781) which opened a window, perhaps, on the private lifestyle of the Prince and his Kapellmeister. For publication, Haydn rewrote the baryton part for flute, but neither he nor Artaria seemed at all concerned that the horn parts were among the most difficult ever written.

The Works   
Hob 10 #   Key
     1            D
     2            D
     3            a
     4            G
     5            G
     6            A
    12           G
All scored for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Viola, Cello & Violone.

All seven pieces have 3 movements, arranged like so;

Hob 1 (Artaria #5) in D major
I    Allegro moderato
II   Adagio
III  Rondo: Presto

Hob 2 (#1) in D major
I    Allegro moderato
II   Adagio
III  Thema con variazioni: Allegro

Hob 3 (#3) in a minor
I    Adagio
II   Allegro
III  Allegretto

Hob 4 (#4) in G major
I    Thema con variazioni: Moderato
II   Adagio
III  Tempo di Menuetto

Hob 5 (#2) in G major
I    Adagio
II   Allegro
III  Finale: Presto

Hob 6 (#6) in A major
I    Moderato
II   Adagio
III  Finale: [Allegro]

Hob 12 (#7) in G major
I    Moderato
II   Adagio
III  Presto

Notice that #2 & 3 (Hob 3 & 5) are the only two that use a slow introduction. These are in the old Sonata di Chiesa form that Haydn inherited from the Baroque church music that he grew up with. They represent the last time he used this form, a long tradition that he had carried forward with him since the beginning, reaching a peak (IMO) in Symphony #49 in f minor, La passione of 1768. All the other five follow the pattern 'fast – slow – fast or very fast'.

There is no record, or even a hint, that Haydn composed any baryton music after this. In 1776, at 61 years old, Prince Nicholas quit performing. This was also the year that the Esterháza Opera began to produce works full-tilt. So Nicholas clearly didn't give up on music, he merely changed his focus. It also marked the year that the great horn player, Carl Frantz, who had inspired Haydn to some of the finest writing for horn ever, left Esterháza for good.

The Recordings
I have three sets of these works. Possibly there are more, I'm not sure beyond saying that I haven't seen any.

+ =
The Ricercar Consort on Ricercar

+ =

The Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Manfred Huss  on BIS, formerly on Koch/Schwann



The Esterházy Ensemble \ Piccolo Concerto Wien on Brilliant

All three are played on period instruments, and all three include the lovely Quintetto in D for Baryton Trio & 2 Horns, Hob 10:10. Of course, the Esterházy Ensemble set, whether you buy the box of 21 or The Big Box, comes with all of the extant baryton works, a bonus that can't be duplicated elsewhere.

I've been listening to all three sets for the last week, trying to find an edge for one set over the others. There are some things about this music which separate it from other baryton works. For example, if you have been listening to the trios a lot, you remember that there are various fugue and other counterpoint effects that crop up fairly often. In the octets, not so much, since the texture of the greater number of instruments would tend to make that blend in too much to be able to produce an effect. Also, the baryton music doesn't indicate any plucking of the resonating strings. For one thing, it would be difficult to hear plucks other than in totally exposed solos, and then, the large number of tenor and alto voices will already be making the resonating strings... resonate! 

I think it is important to point out that while these are called 'Baryton Octets' (although not by Haydn), they are really Horn Octets. Despite the fact that all the instruments get their share, if you approach these as a showcase for horns, you won't be disappointed.
And that is where it becomes difficult to pick which set to have. All three are superb.

As far as playing goes, and conducting, it's pretty much a draw. I think that if there is a tie-breaker it is in the recorded sound. The newest set is the Esterházy / Piccolo Concerto Wien set on Brilliant. PCW is a great favorite of mine (try their disk of Haydn's early string quartets which also use a violone instead of a cello) and here they show out to advantage. The violone blends into the ensemble more smoothly than the alternative double baß, and yet these recordings still show it to advantage. The bass lines in these works are all played by the cello and violone but often have the low horn helping out. It is great to hear the bass line as something more than just a deep rumble down there!

In any case, I think that your choice could come down to how much music you are looking to acquire. If you want the entire baryton oeuvre, then the Brilliant set is the way to go.

If you are looking for a nice variety of divertimento works, with some rarities like the Six Scherzandi and the Notturnos for the King of Naples, then the BIS offering is a wonderful choice. (if you are stubborn AND wealthy, you can look for the original Koch/Schwann disks, but then you lose the superior BIS remastering)

Finally, if you just want the Octets and Quintet, you can hardly do better than the Ricercar. It is wonderfully well-played, and the set I finally chose in my full review set for 1775.

Please consider giving these a listen. No regrets, I'll bet. If you want to hear the best Tafelmusik ever, and get an inside look at what it sounded like to dine with a Prince, here's your chance.   

Please discuss....

[Florestan]

If you want to hear the best Tafelmusik ever, and get an inside look at what it sounded like to dine with a Prince, here's your chance.

Was the music played during or after the dinner? If the former, then I can imagine the talk: Have another glass of champagne, my dear count! This frommage is absolutely delicious, cher prince! Oh, and that lovely sound in the corner!  

[Gurn Blanston]

Was the music played during or after the dinner? If the former, then I can imagine the talk: Have another glass of champagne, my dear count! This frommage is absolutely delicious, cher prince! Oh, and that lovely sound in the corner!  

I've thought about that, and given what I've read of Nicholas' personality, I don't think he would have let a lot come between him and the music. This wasn't France, after all....

[Bogey]

Purchases Today (transplanted  )

Just received these 2 in today's post. Listening to the symphonies now;



I had seen reviews of these here and there, enough to pique my curiosity. The Arion Baroque, led here by harpsichordist Gary Cooper, are indeed a 'real size' ensemble, in this case employing 17 musicians, which is very likely to be the precise number in the Esterhazy band at the time these works were composed (1768-71). Despite Mr. Hogwood's protestations, Cooper plays a harpsichord continuo. The justification for using a 3rd viola comes from Haydn's famous written instructions for the performance of the cantata "Applausus" from 1767, in which he urges the use of an extra viola to support the inner (instrumental) voices which frequently need it more than the upper and lower ones. In addition, since trumpets and timpani were only added on at the time of publication and didn't exist in the original autograph score of #41, they aren't used here in it either. The result is rather stunning actually. Whereas in every version (many!) that I've heard, one must struggle to pick out the amazing C maj Alto horns from the trumpets, here they stand out in a stark beauty that must be heard to be appreciated. I must admit, I am absolutely delighted so far (though still only in #44, another winner!). This is very HIP, unless you already really like PI and all it can do, you may be brought up short when you first hear it, esp. #41.

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that?  We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow.

Under the tree:

[Gurn Blanston]

Under the tree:

Ah, and have you given it a spin yet, Bill?   Merry Christmas to you and Mrs. Bill. 

[Bogey]

Ah, and have you given it a spin yet, Bill?   Merry Christmas to you and Mrs. Bill. 

Just finished a meal of prime rib, garlic mashed pot., Yorkshire pudding and now for a spin.  Absolutely a beautiful way to pause between dinner and deseart.   And a Merry Christmas to you, my friend!

[Gurn Blanston]

Not sure if this totally fulfills the demands of  this thread - but since Haydn's name appears in the title, I'm posting about it here.   I found what appears to be an interesting recording while looking for Monica Huggett discs:

Haydn and the Gypsies: Solo and Chamber Music in Style Hongrois

[asin]B00004SVIA[/asin]

I've been looking at that one for a while, San. It's just excerpts from the works, is that not so? Still, that's some of the most intriguing music that Haydn wrote. I just might break down  if you sat it's good.

[Karl Henning]

Lo stile ungherese

[SonicMan46]

Hi Gurn - thanks again for another excellent 'essay' - I've really enjoyed the Haydn Baryton Works over the years - I do have Huss in a 5-CD box of the Early Divertimenti which is fun but includes largely Hob. II pieces.  Of the performances shown, I do own two in your collection, and also have the additional disc inserted (right), which has but just 2 of the baryton octets (3 & 12 in your list).

Now I've never done a 'back to back' comparison the the Ricercar Consrot w/ the octets in the BIG box, but have enjoyed both sets for performances.  Dave

   

[Karl Henning]

Pardon my non-participation, I always lurk with interest.

Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Gurn - thanks again for another excellent 'essay' - I've really enjoyed the Haydn Baryton Works over the years - I do have Huss in a 5-CD box of the Early Divertimenti which is fun but includes largely Hob. II pieces.  Of the performances shown, I do own two in your collection, and also have the additional disc inserted (right), which has but just 2 of the baryton octets (3 & 12 in your list).

Now I've never done a 'back to back' comparison the the Ricercar Consrot w/ the octets in the BIG box, but have enjoyed both sets for performances.  Dave

Thanks, Dave, glad you enjoyed it. I have that 'Delirium' disk too, and also this one;

[asin]B002HIELX0[/asin]

which has 3 octets and the quintet. For the purpose of that essay I was looking at the complete sets, however, both of these partial sets are well worth owning. Esp. that 'Delirium' disk which has such wonderful lire organizatta playing on it.

[Opus106]

Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

And the others simply have to rough it out with Stockhausen?