Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

In poking through some back-alley folders, I found the attached, which I include here for the sake of the program notes for a Haydn symphony, not all that frequent in Symphony Hall these days.

[Gurn Blanston]

In poking through some back-alley folders, I found the attached, which I include here for the sake of the program notes for a Haydn symphony, not all that frequent in Symphony Hall these days.

That was quite interesting, Karl. I think the writer could have gotten more mileage out of the Cors Anglais bit by mentioning that they were used here, not as a supplement, but in place of the oboes. That would be the uniqueness, would it not?  Anyway. looks like a nice evening spent though! 

[Karl Henning]

That was quite interesting, Karl. I think the writer could have gotten more mileage out of the Cors Anglais bit by mentioning that they were used here, not as a supplement, but in place of the oboes. That would be the uniqueness, would it not?  Anyway. looks like a nice evening spent though! 

It was a while ago, but I remember the evening well, Gurn!

[Gurn Blanston]

It was a while ago, but I remember the evening well, Gurn!

Indeed, and how not?  When I went to the Atlanta Symphony in 1999, I saw Joshua Bell playing Saint-Saëns, and Franck's Le Chasseur Maudit, but ultimately it was the opener of Haydn #98 that I remember best. 

[Karl Henning]

And here was a program which was essentially a thumbnail History of the Symphony from the Beginning to the present day: early-ish "Papa", a Brahms symphony which looks back even past "Papa", and The Latest.  And lo! it was All Good.

[calyptorhynchus]

I've just been pottering around amongst the early symphonies of Haydn and a thought occurred to me. Looking at the traditional numbers and at a modern attempted chronological list it seems that many of the early three movement symphonies are given numbers which are too low. Could it be that the first editors assumed that Haydn began writing three movement symphonies and moved on to four movement works?

I assume that the real story about Haydn's three and four movements works is that he wrote both until four movement works began to predominate later. The actual decision about the number of  movements depended on whether he had trumpets and drums available, if he didn't he wrote a three movement work, if he did he wrote a Minuet and Trio in addition.

[Gurn Blanston]

Sorry, Karl, you posted while I was moving that conversation;

Here

We need to share that with the rest of the world, don't you think?

[Karl Henning]

Agreed.

[Octave]

I have not been able to find comment on Alain Planès' Haydn recordings.  I mainly see these two on HM:

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[Gurn Blanston]

I have not been able to find comment on Alain Planès' Haydn recordings.  I mainly see these two on HM:

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I have read that they are very good. I only have period instrument recordings, and so haven't invested in these, but seems that someone here posted that they were very good indeed. Actually, I'm curious myself.

[Opus106]

Octave, you will have a chance to listen to a selection from those volumes when you receive your copy of the Lumières box.

[Wakefield]

I have read that they are very good. I only have period instrument recordings, and so haven't invested in these, but seems that someone here posted that they were very good indeed. Actually, I'm curious myself.

Yes, very good; not better, but at the same level that Brendel or McCabe, if we're talking about modern piano. 

[Karl Henning]

So... a bit of the « Emperor » quartet appears momentarily in the Columbo episode, "Sex and the Married Detective."

[Octave]

Gurn, Nav, and GS, thanks for that input.  Re: that LUMIERES box, I know I've hit 'problem' territory when I'm about to duplicate-purchase recordings the first copy of which I have not received yet!   

Also thanks to Gurn et al for the synoptic/comparative type essay posts, recently on the Baryton works and the two-part comparison of some HIP CREATIONs (~p.202+, maybe a bit before).  Really useful, those.

[Mandryka]

After spending some time with the book, having read the first three chapters and skimmed the remaining sections, I would say that it is about one-third to one-half within the grasp of someone with little or no musical training or the ability to read a score.  This would include the chapters on the instruments Haydn may have owned (including the various makers) and composed on (which is part of the larger sections on the development of the keyboards during Haydn's time), as well as the introductory sections on understanding Haydn's notational markings (as compared with today's understanding of them), sonata form and genres.

I'd say anyone interested in the historical aspect of the keyboards available and used by Haydn, as well as what texts and composers he was probably influenced by, will find about one-third to enjoy.   But if the meaning of terms such as exposition, double-bar or embellishments is a bit fuzzy, or for someone with little or no interest in music theory, the book may have a significant amount of frustrating text.

I don't wish to under-promote the book, since for someone with an interest in this topic the areas which may at first appear frustrating can with a little effort be taken in.  I'd say, the historical chapters are much less technical than the Charles Rosen book, The Classical Style, but those chapters dealing with theory are about at the same level as his book.

Does this discuss the influence (if any) of C P E Bach?

[Gurn Blanston]

After spending some time with the book, having read the first three chapters and skimmed the remaining sections, I would say that it is about one-third to one-half within the grasp of someone with little or no musical training or the ability to read a score.  This would include the chapters on the instruments Haydn may have owned (including the various makers) and composed on (which is part of the larger sections on the development of the keyboards during Haydn's time), as well as the introductory sections on understanding Haydn's notational markings (as compared with today's understanding of them), sonata form and genres.

I'd say anyone interested in the historical aspect of the keyboards available and used by Haydn, as well as what texts and composers he was probably influenced by, will find about one-third to enjoy.   But if the meaning of terms such as exposition, double-bar or embellishments is a bit fuzzy, or for someone with little or no interest in music theory, the book may have a significant amount of frustrating text.

I don't wish to under-promote the book, since for someone with an interest in this topic the areas which may at first appear frustrating can with a little effort be taken in.  I'd say, the historical chapters are much less technical than the Charles Rosen book, The Classical Style, but those chapters dealing with theory are about at the same level as his book.

Excellent, thanks for that, San. I tend to wade right into books like that and come away with mixed feelings over it. I just finished my second reading of The Classical Style and they were about 10 years apart. I was rather delighted that this time I understood about 40% more jargon. The things that throw me (and irritate to some extent) are where the author will say "it is obvious that Schubert was influenced in this part by Mozart **2 pages of score here** see here? **2 more pages of score here**. Ahd that's it, no further explanation needed.  OK....

Well, the history and instrument info alone sound like they will make it worthwhile. Thanks again.

[Brian]

What, no deep thought, no personal utterances, just entertainment? You're a lackey of the aristocracy, like that old, liveried, wigged guy... can't remember his name... ! 

What kind of sissy would write music like that?!

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, Nav, and GS, thanks for that input.  Re: that LUMIERES box, I know I've hit 'problem' territory when I'm about to duplicate-purchase recordings the first copy of which I have not received yet!   

Welcome to our CDCDCD Rehab Center.

Also thanks to Gurn et al for the synoptic/comparative type essay posts, recently on the Baryton works and the two-part comparison of some HIP CREATIONs (~p.202+, maybe a bit before).  Really useful, those.

You are most welcome. If you use the table of contents links you will also find a note on the trumpet concerto which I am rather pleased with. What a nice piece of music that is; never tire of it.

[Gurn Blanston]

What, no deep thought, no personal utterances, just entertainment? You're a lackey of the aristocracy, like that old, liveried, wigged guy... can't remember his name... ! 

What kind of sissy would write music like that?!

to both of you then.   Your Romantic 'deep thinkers' wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if it wasn't for the shallow thinkers who came before... ummm, wait, that come out all wrong then, didn't it?

[Brian]

I'm not a hater, Gurn!

Maybe it would help if I typed up a little essay about Haydn I found interesting?

Haydn and Tradition
Vagn Holmboe
translated by Paul Rapoport

I think it is a common assumption that many young composers equate tradition and stagnation; and that is certainly in keeping with youth's traditional clash with the idols of the older generation or its struggle against derivatively empty phrases and forms, which a creative composer must feel are stale and lifeless and therefore loudly repudiates.

Young composers naturally are right to fight what they feel is burdensome tradition, a dead weight, which they must discard in their independent and free striving after new content and new forms. But they are not right in summarily equating tradition, stagnation and imitation. The consequences of that attitude may be catastrophic for those same young people; and if they cling to it past a normal rebellious phase, they will merely achieve a pseudo-liberation which all too easily ends up in rootless sterility.

Tradition is often regarded as a constraint and (especially after the First World War) has been likened to stagnation. This is undoubtedly due to the multiple meanings of the word. The concept is not a fixed one; for it may certainly involve simple imitation, derivativeness which is perhaps correct but insipid, but it may also mean a foundation of experience, which for the composer may be a standard and an inspiring stimulus to fresh creative work with the conditions of a new age. I must understand the concept in this latter sense, and as far as I can recall, as a composer I have always regarded tradition as a cultural heritage which was felt not to be an enforced obligation but a merciful gift.

When I was quite young, I was interviewed by a journalist who in the course of the conversation asked which composers I was especially influenced by: the interviewer obviously expected that I would repudiate the classical tradition and mention exclusively the great contemporary musical vanguard.

When I mentioned Haydn first of all, the journalist was both surprised and dismayed, because my answer was not at all in agreement with the traditional picture, the one he too had formed of youth; and that a young modern composer could be influenced by an antique like Haydn was in his eyes something close to unnatural.

In the interview there was no room for a closer justification, but here it is, many years later.

-

That admiration for Haydn's music is instinctive, that it is anchored in an immediate attraction without any reflection is, to be sure, a principal cause; but it is hardly a sufficient explanation, the less so as several composers might be mentioned for whom I have an absolute and deep admiration, but who do not have this special attraction. On the other hand, an attempt to give an adequate impression of Haydn's greatness as a composer is not possible here, so I must be content to point out a few features which may perhaps shed a little light on the matter.

On a superficial hearing, Haydn's music is uncomplicated, accommodating and easily accessible. Its humour, its drama and its unerring formulation of concise material are understood just as readily as a fairy-tale is understood by any child. Many people stop there in their evaluation of Haydn, resign themselves to it, and in so doing spread around the notion of 'Papa Haydn,' the good and kind composer who writes very nice music, easy to listen to, but without the depths of a Mozart or a Beethoven. But we must not be fooled: Haydn's music is like the fairy-tale, or like an iceberg. Under the visible (or audible) surface unsuspected powers are hidden which are released and comprehended only by a receptive, reflective and sensitive mind. It would take far too much space to go further into this, to become immersed in his symphonies, quartets and sonatas and describe the fantastic, effortless balance between form and content that is so assured that you do not think about it for a minute when you listen to the music. Haydn's form is created directly by the spontaneous, richly varied content and is thus unique for every single work.

There is, however, one item which from my point of view is important to bring out, namely, Haydn's close connection with folk music. This is due not so much to a direct adoption of tunes from the folk music by which he was surrounded, and knew so well—attractive songs and dances of Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Slovakian origins—but in far deeper measure to the fact that his music has its roots in folk music. No matter how complicated, subtle and refined his form and technique may become over the years, he always preserves the spontaneously human and straightforwardly musical utterance, which is fundamental to all folk music.

Many composers, and perhaps basically all the great ones, have their roots deep down in the primal layers of the human mind, from which all folk music arises; and they all have the ability to join the simple, the clear and the possibly naïve to a fairly advanced technique and intellectual mode of expression. The overall power of individual renewal and collective tradition has always been important in European music. Without renewal, music turns into a weak echo, a banality; but if tradition is cut away, music will be dehumanised. It will turn into cerebral concoctions and empty postulation.

Technique, style and mode of expression have changed, both before and after Haydn, in accord with the changing times. But Haydn was innovative to an unusual extent and developed his highly personal and intellectually sophisticated music in the light of a powerful tradition. Thus he can be an example to any era, but like the other great composers from the past and the present, he cannot be imitated without fatal consequences. For mere imitation will simply betray tradition, which is a gift and a stimulus to renewal.



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