Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

Gurn - regarding your blog post of the symphonies, did Haydn sometimes put things aside and then take them up later? I would imagine this could really throw a wrench in the works (of ordering them I mean), though not much can be done I suppose..............

Neal - I would suspect that those composers of the Baroque period into the early classical era likely composed a LOT and rapidly, but the transition into the 19th century led to fewer compositions written over a longer period and also presumably revised more - just a generality from my readings.

As an example, Susan & I saw a wonderful play yesterday based on the Diabelli Variations of LVBeethoven - as the quote below (from Wiki) states that he composed these over 4 yrs or so - the play was wonderful (and we made comments in THIS THREAD) - if you or other GMGers have an opportunity to see it, then highly recommended! 

Well, not much help relative to Papa Joe's writing habits, but having just seen this play on Beethoven stimulated me to think about the topic your questioned - Dave

The 33 Variations on a waltz by Anton Diabelli, Op. 120, commonly known as the Diabelli Variations, is a set of variations for the piano written between 1819 and 1823 by Ludwig van Beethoven on a waltz composed by Anton Diabelli.

[mc ukrneal]

That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem!   Thanks eveyone!

[Bogey]

That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem!   Thanks eveyone!

[Karl Henning]

That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed.

Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

And, call me a contrarian, but even here in da Haus, I give perhaps half a hoot for Mozart and his methods ; )

[Gurn Blanston]

Berkshire Record Outlet has a Solomans/L'Estro Armonico CD with #39, 45 and 59 for  $ 4.99 right now.  I highly recommend that purchase.  Great sense of Sturm und Drang style with PI sound that fits the music perfectly.

Another Solomons/L'Estro Armonico CD that is sometimes available has #45 and 48.  The performance of 48 has great PI sound and a very manic feeling.  I'd recommend getting that CD as well even if 45 is a duplicate with the other CD.

Bill

Yes, each of those disks can be had reasonably, and are certainly worthwhile having. Especially the one with #48, since even if you can get Vols 7 & 9, #48 appears on neither of them, although the others all do. #48 is such a butt-kicker too.

[Gurn Blanston]

That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem!   Thanks everyone!

Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

And, call me a contrarian, but even here in da Haus, I give perhaps half a hoot for Mozart and his methods ; )

Neal,
Of course I know you are kidding around, but I introduced Mozart because the method you described is exactly the method he used. Also, like Haydn, I love Mozart's music. Just sayin'....

Karl is quite right though; Haydn didn't work by commission until quite late in his career. He had a contractual obligation to appear in uniform every day before lunch and take orders on what the Prince wanted to hear, and then go and write it, practice it, and play it on schedule. He didn't have time for 'art for art's sake'. 

[Karl Henning]

Part of my reading this morning:

The life of Haydn provides the model for the whole subsequent development. He was for four decades Kapellmeister to the princely house of Esterházy, rose from a duty-bound official of the household to a ranking and personally highly esteemed "Herr Kapellmeister," was in practice independent from the 1780s on, was able to travel and to make what use he wished of his works despite a standing contract with the princely house, and in his old age lived a perfectly independent life. The princes he had served had long passed from orchestra owners to Maecenases, and occasionally to friends. The result of all this Beethoven inherited; Vienna's aristocracy felt called upon – without any sort of formal commitment, save the assurance of his remaining in Vienna when he threatened to go to Kassel – to support him for life. In Haydn's last years and in Mozart's the two opposite extremes of an artist's existence, as they were to be frequently repeated in the Romantic era, are already exemplified: both lived as free artists, but the one is the world-renowned master, everywhere acknowledged and treated as a matter of course with respect, sought after by public and publisher, knowing how to preserve his economic independence as well; the other, understood only with effort and achieving his ends only with difficulty, lives in a spiritual sphere that causes him to lose his footing in the material world.

From Classic and Romantic Music: A Comprehensive Survey (translated by M.D. Herter Norton), pp. 88-89

[Gurn Blanston]

Part of my reading this morning:

From Classic and Romantic Music: A Comprehensive Survey (translated by M.D. Herter Norton), pp. 88-89

Very good book, Karl, full of interesting titbits. Blume is not quite clear on Haydn's independence though. He says "from the 1780's on..." it should be clarified that Haydn did NOT have the freedom to go where he wished (short of resigning, which he wouldn't do) until late 1790 after Nicholas died. He did, however, have the freedom to sell his works to outside publishers from 1780 onward, which he did with great relish and indefatigable energy. So those two things shouldn't be understood to be one thing! 

[Karl Henning]

Excellent emendation, Gurn.

[Bogey]

For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many?  Can you imagine if we only had nine or so?  Might they be discussed more?  Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on."  With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

[mc ukrneal]

For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many?  Can you imagine if we only had nine or so?  Might they be discussed more?  Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on."  With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

That's a hard one. I think some people are scared off by the numbers, after all, 100(+) symphonies is a lot! But they make up such an interesting development of his work. I think it is hard to take some away and decide with any certainty whether they still would have been popular and impactful. It is also hard to imagine how he got to the end without the ones before. And if he didn't get to the end, I'm not sure they would be as popular as they are.

[Gurn Blanston]

For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many?  Can you imagine if we only had nine or so?  Might they be discussed more?  Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on."  With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

In the introductory essay to this series I put that same speculation out, hoping for some sort of discussion on it. I believe it is quite true, actually, and I offer that based on the fact that when small groups are discussed, there is more participation than if 'the symphonies' are thrown out. So, when it's "The London Symphonies" or "The Paris Symphonies", then people seem quite eager to discuss. But the larger volume of the entire oeuvre seems off-putting. But as you are discovering now, even smaller groups like 'the early symphonies' have their fascination.

[Bogey]

That's a hard one. I think some people are scared off by the numbers, after all, 100(+) symphonies is a lot! But they make up such an interesting development of his work. I think it is hard to take some away and decide with any certainty whether they still would have been popular and impactful. It is also hard to imagine how he got to the end without the ones before. And if he didn't get to the end, I'm not sure they would be as popular as they are.

I believe the number has a a lot to do with it as well.  In short, I believe "the more" has more to do with less folks excited about these symphonies than the music.  Mozart's almost in the same boat.  We're not talking lightweights here.  Also it is difficult for people to collect 'em and compare them. 

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I've found it necessary to embark on practically a full survey, just to have a frame of reference.  Of course, the music has been ample reward for the effort. Likewise the string quartets, the piano sonatas . . . .

[Bogey]

In the introductory essay to this series I put that same speculation out, hoping for some sort of discussion on it. I believe it is quite true, actually, and I offer that based on the fact that when small groups are discussed, there is more participation than if 'the symphonies' are thrown out. So, when it's "The London Symphonies" or "The Paris Symphonies", then people seem quite eager to discuss. But the larger volume of the entire oeuvre seems off-putting. But as you are discovering now, even smaller groups like 'the early symphonies' have their fascination.

Is this in the blog, Gurn? 

I almost mentioned the Paris and Londons on the same basis as well.  Plus, 100 plus can be a bit of work.  After the first five I jostled back to my comfort food of chamber Beethoven.  Where as if I had done the Brahms run....well, I would have been done.

[Gurn Blanston]

Is this in the blog, Gurn? 

I almost mentioned the Paris and Londons on the same basis as well.  Plus, 100 plus can be a bit of work.  After the first five I jostled back to my comfort food of chamber Beethoven.  Where as if I had done the Brahms run....well, I would have been done.

Yes, Haydn was a professional composer and part of his job was to write music most days.  After 40 + years, things began to accumulate, so there is a lot of it. I will try to sort this for you, at the same step as we deal with the Hoboken Catalog; that is, one at a time. Only way to do it, isn't it? As for the stories one hears ('no point even listening to piano trios before the very last ones' is one, another is 'all the symphonies sound alike'), I think we will be able to dispel those with a little judicious listening and some open-minded thinking. Which I say because after 10 years spent here virtually every day, I know that a lot of people already have their minds made up about music from 1750 to 1780. So we will try to get it off from your personal dustheap and onto your player where it belongs.

Earlier I had merely listed some obstacles to Haydn's popularity, and then addressed that one just a bit with this paragraph. I did want people to view it as a challenge for discussion, but you know me,  I tend towards obliqueness.

[Bogey]

I guess the other challenge I face with the symphonies, and maybe others do as well, is that with so many their is the memory of each.  Easier to discuss one of LvB's without a re-listen where if you say, "So, the second movement in No. 23....what do you think?"  Difficult for most to react without a re-listen.

[Bogey]

Could I get to where I could tell someone something that is unique to each....no, but for me that does not diminish the journey.

[Karl Henning]

I guess the other challenge I face with the symphonies, and maybe others do as well, is that with so many their is the memory of each.  Easier to discuss one of LvB's without a re-listen where if you say, "So, the second movement in No. 23....what do you think?"  Difficult for most to react without a re-listen.

Exactly. For dozens of the symphonies, my initial listen (which has been the only, so far) has yielded little more than This is good, this is not any "juvenile" work, each symphony has its own profile.

I have retained a recollection of the profile of more of the symphonies than I ever had before, Bill, but . . . not that my goal is pure mental recollection of each of the 104 (plus), but recollection of enough to take responsible part in a conversation : )

[Karl Henning]

Could I get to where I could tell someone something that is unique to each....no, but for me that does not diminish the journey.

And: Exactly, again. : )