Haydn's Haus

[Mandryka]

Harnoncourt's 'Paris' recordings aren't completely sui generis, though, are they?  What is the difference between his conception of the Paris symphonies and the prior/other 'tunes/stuff'-foreground/background approach?  I'm not sure I understand the thrust of your argument, but it seems that you're saying that virtually all older recordings (not necessarily all modern-instruments recordings, but all pre-HIP-golden-age recordings) are not of interest to you, is that right?  What changed in interpretations?

I thought the conversation was moving in the direction of a sea-change in our understanding of Haydn's music and the way we listened to it and read it; but Mandryka seems to suggest that what's interesting in Haydn is missing from basically everyone's performances.  Specific examples would help me here.

Correct. The conversation  was moving in the direction of a sea-change in our understanding of Haydn's music and I am suggesting indeed that what's interesting in Haydn is missing from basically everyone's performances. Though these two propositions are clearly related.

My contention is that pre Harnoncourt, the basic understanding of Haydn was that he wrote rumbustious music, best played by latching onto the big tunes and performing them as elegantly and as wittily as possible . There are exceptions -- Van Beinum and maybe  Fricsay and Abendroth are the obvious ones , and there are some others. Harnoncourt at his best in Haydn is not like this. Dissonances are highlighted, the phrasing sometimes jolts. The music becomes much more challenging.  Some of the time I hear the same sort of conception from Bruggen, and occasionally from others like Richard Tognetti  and Peter Guelke.

[Leo K.]

I am going to give Thomas Fey more of a listen since I've only really sampled a couple of his recordings.  Spotify and MOG have most if not all of his releases to date, so I will spending today and a few days next week listening to his Haydn recordings.  So far my impression is better than what I came away with from my experience with #31.

He's also done a near complete set of Mendelssohn symphonies, if anyone is interested.

I didn't know Fey has a Mendelssohn recording! Want to hear that! Thank God for spotify!

[Leo K.]

Gurn, I'm continually impressed with your Haydn project, it is such a help! Thanks again 

[Leo K.]

Beethoven the thinker and Bach the computer are for me above all the others. But only slightly above Mozart the most perfect and the most subtle ear and Haydn the man of the music as it should be or just the music as it really is.

Of course I appreciate all the subtlety and intelligence of Haydn's music. He made the new era with his ability to give all the things in brackets - in thousands kinds of brackets and milions kinds of brackets in brackets. But there is something beside this intelligence of his music mind - the very special gift to achieve all that could be achieved in the most simple way.

How wonderfully well put is "Haydn the man of the music as it should be or just the music as it really is" I've never thought of Haydn that way, and it would be a perfect title for a Haydn book.

[Florestan]

This thread goes more and more encomiastic with each passing day so a little Devil's Advocate is in order... 

I have no doubt that he could have done, just as he did with so many other forms. But I see no indication that the Prince had any interest in concertos

From this it can be inferred that Haydn had no interest in anything that his Prince had no interest in, and it was just a stroke of luck that the Prince wanted symphonies and string quartets. Had Eszterhazy Nikolaus been interested only in wind serenades and guitar duos, we could have kissed most of Haydn's oeuvre good bye. 

Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

Karl is quite right though; Haydn didn't work by commission until quite late in his career. He had a contractual obligation to appear in uniform every day before lunch and take orders on what the Prince wanted to hear, and then go and write it, practice it, and play it on schedule. He didn't have time for 'art for art's sake'.

Precisely: a genius no doubt, but nevertheless a servile one. The Prince ordered and he obeyed. It is against this kind of subordination that the Romantics rose in rebellion, among other things --- and rightly so. Exactly as in my Victor Hugo signature: Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent --- Eszterhazy or Colloredo or anyone else be damned for not liking/accepting/ordering it.

[Mandryka]

Haydn officially did the "Laudon" symphony (Hob 69 in C) but intentionally left off the Finale, saying that it wouldn't work on a piano anyway. I don't know any others that he did himself, although everyone and their brother did piano reductions back them, most of them uncredited (hired by the publisher, so to say).

Has this thing ever been recorded? I can't see it in Bart van Oort's box of misc. works.

I'm really dying to hear it.

[Florestan]

It may even be argued that Mozart's melodies are not only more conventional than Haydn's, but in general less 'characteristic,' less imediately descriptive of a specific sentiment or action. Mozart's musical references rarely descend to the particularity of Haydn's tone-painting and sentiment-painting in his two great oratorios.

Pfffffffff.... 

[Florestan]

I don't know anyone who could recollect a specific movement of any symphony you name.

I am able to recollect the 1st and last movements of #88 and, of course, the 2nd from "The Surprise". 

[Sergeant Rock]

I can, of course, instantly recall the cat theme from the first movement of 99 

Sarge

[Florestan]

Today I've been listening to #30 "Halleluja" and #91 with St. Paul SO conducted by Nicholas McGhegan, They both featured the harpsichord, but while in the former it worked wonders and really added something of value to the rythmic drive, in the latter it was barely audible and in the rare instances it was heard it was only an annoying tinkle-tinkle of no musical significance whatsoever. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I am able to recollect the 1st and last movements of #88 and, of course, the 2nd from "The Surprise". 

And the 2nd movement of #101 too. But I meant more like;

Gurn: Hey, what's that symphony playing on the radio?

Florestan: Oh, that's the minuet from Haydn #55, The Schoolmaster.

That would be totally out there!!

[Florestan]

Gurn: Hey, what's that symphony playing on the radio?

Florestan: Oh, that's the minuet from Haydn #55, The Schoolmaster.

Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

[Gurn Blanston]

Has this thing ever been recorded? I can't see it in Bart van Oort's box of misc. works.

I'm really dying to hear it.

I'm pretty sure I have it somewhere, I'll keep looking. Meanwhile, I remembered this one which is pretty nice too;




Symphony #53 was hugely popular in England dating back to nearly the time of its composition (mid 1770's). Bach probably did the piano reduction to perform it at the Bach/Abel Concerts.

[Gurn Blanston]

Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

Probably nearer to right.

[Florestan]

Today I've been listening to #30 "Halleluja" and #91 with St. Paul SO conducted by Nicholas McGhegan, They both featured the harpsichord, but while in the former it worked wonders and really added something of value to the rythmic drive, in the latter it was barely audible and in the rare instances it was heard it was only an annoying tinkle-tinkle of no musical significance whatsoever. 

Gurn, which is the last symphony that features a harpsichord in the original score?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, which is the last symphony that features a harpsichord in the original score?

#98

[Florestan]

#98

Thanks. How do you like them: with or without harpsichord?

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks. How do you like them: with or without harpsichord?

I have heard most of the arguments from both sides, both the technical aspect arguments and the I just don't like it arguments. In all honesty, I like them both ways, no matter.  As I tried to show in the last blog post, the size of that orchestra was so small that if you are playing with an authentic size orchestra, the continuo has to be a help in filling in. If you have one of Goodman's early symphony disks and one of Hogwood's, you can take it for granted that orchestra sizes are virtually identical, but one has a harpsichord and the other doesn't. You can hear a difference, of course, but deciding whether it matter to you or not is a bit harder. My feeling is that either way is authentic; even if Haydn's band didn't use continuo (which isn't proven), you can bet that everyone else did. It just was automatic.

[Florestan]

I have heard most of the arguments from both sides, both the technical aspect arguments and the I just don't like it arguments. In all honesty, I like them both ways, no matter.  As I tried to show in the last blog post, the size of that orchestra was so small that if you are playing with an authentic size orchestra, the continuo has to be a help in filling in. If you have one of Goodman's early symphony disks and one of Hogwood's, you can take it for granted that orchestra sizes are virtually identical, but one has a harpsichord and the other doesn't. You can hear a difference, of course, but deciding whether it matter to you or not is a bit harder. My feeling is that either way is authentic; even if Haydn's band didn't use continuo (which isn't proven), you can bet that everyone else did. It just was automatic.

Are the forces for #91 thicker than for #30 "Halleluja"?

[mszczuj]

Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

Being there, done that. For many years I started in TV game shows especially in some about classical music. "Haydn - his live and music" was without any doubt the most hopeless and the most frustrating among them. I didn't recognize "Maria Thersia" and answered "La Chasse" and answered "Sinfonia Concertane" while being asked for "Le Midi".