Haydn's Haus

[Bogey]

We should start a campaign to change the nickname of the Sixth from "Le Matin" to "The Troll" 

Sarge

[Wakefield]

That's indeed a great novel but my favorite is Steppenwolf. And my very favorite Hesse in all genres must be the poems contained in The Glass Bead Game. (translations, too.)

Speaking of Hesse and music, here's an excerpt from the introduction to TGBG which I think fits very well in this thread:

"We consider classical music to be the epitome and quintessence of our culture, because it is that culture's clearest, most significant gesture and expression. In this music we possess the heritage of classical antiquity and Christianity, a spirit of serenely cheerful and brave piety, a superbly chivalric morality. For in the final analysis every important cultural gesture comes down to a morality, a model for human behavior concentrated into a gesture. As we know, between 1500 and 1800 a wide variety of music was made; styles and means of expression were extremely variegated; but the spirit, or rather the morality, was everywhere the same. The human attitude of which classical music is the expression is always the same; it is always based on the same kind of insight into life and strives for the same kind of victory over blind chance. Classical music as gesture signifies knowledge of the tragedy of the human condition, affirmation of human destiny, courage, cheerful serenity. The grace of a minuet by Handel or Couperin, the sensuality sublimated into delicate gesture to be found in many Italian composers or in Mozart, the tranquil, composed readiness for death in Bach -- always there may be heard in these works a defiance, a death-defying intrepidity, a gallantry, and a note of superhuman laughter, of immortal gay serenity."

I did read four novels by Hess, including Steppenwolf, but not The Glass Bead Game. Maybe it's time because I have a copy, also bought several years ago. That introduction sounds like the profession of faith of every Romantic spirit inclined to Music. 

[Florestan]

I did read four novels by Hess, including Steppenwolf, but not The Glass Bead Game. Maybe it's time because I have a copy, also bought several years ago.

Another great novel of his is Narcissus and Goldmund. His short stories and tales ar excellent too.

That introduction sounds like the profession of faith of every Romantic spirit inclined to Music. 

Ain't it?

[Gurn Blanston]

After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1.  His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2.  I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

#1: probably true for me, too, although I hate to think it is.
#2: true of all composers, though.   

[Karl Henning]

Y'all have probably listened to more Fey (and mayhap Haydn) than I have, but I think Fey and Fischer are the only recordings I've heard of the Hornsignal, and I don't mind considering Fey my favorite, there.

[Gurn Blanston]

Y'all have probably listened to more Fey (and mayhap Haydn) than I have, but I think Fey and Fischer are the only recordings I've heard of the Hornsignal, and I don't mind considering Fey my favorite, there.

My favorite. Anthony Halstead on lead horn. It's a peach! 

[SonicMan46]

After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1.  His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2.  I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

Sanantonio - that has a familiar ring to it!     Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

I like that too, but this one is good too.



Have you heard it?  Rifkin usually is PI, but this band can go either way.  I don't have the actual item, only an mp3, so I don't have access to the notes and the Amazon image of the back cover does not say one way or the other.

No, never saw that one before. Capriccio is full of disks like that, nice, thematic rarities that they must have had a pressing of maybe 1000 copies and put to bed. I'll have a look round for it though, it looks interesting.

[Gurn Blanston]

....Do you know if Symphony No. 37 is listed, Gurn?

Yes, #37  IS in the Entwurf Katalog. If you have the New Grove Haydn you will find on page 96, the 5th entry down from the top of the page. In the column titled "Authentication" it says 'EK'. In Volume 1 of Robbins-Landon there is a picture of the title page and the caption says "Title page of the earliest recorded MS (manuscript) of a Haydn symphony - No. 37 - dated 1758; Schwarzenburg Archives, Krumau"   

[Wakefield]

I like that too, but this one is good too.



Have you heard it?  Rifkin usually is PI, but this band can go either way.  I don't have the actual item, only an mp3, so I don't have access to the notes and the Amazon image of the back cover does not say one way or the other.

The Capella Coloniensis is a 100% PI band. Actually, it's one of the oldest German ensembles playing on period instruments.

That disc and another three by them performing Haydn's symphonies are included in this relatively cheap 12-CD set:



1.CD "Jagd-Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 31 & 72 (Capella
Coloniensis, Joshua Rifkin / 1993)
+2.CD "Frühe Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 5, 11, 12, 36 (Capella
Coloniensis, Ferdinand Leitner, Hans-Martin Linde / 1993)
+3.& 4.CD "Späte Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 89, 90, 91, 92, 98
(Capella Coloniensis, Hans-Martin Linde, Ferdinand Leitner/
1982-1988)
+5.CD "Violinkonzerte / Sinfonia Concertante":Violinkonzerte
H7a Nr. 1 & 3;Sinfonia concertante H1: 105 (Kalafusz,
Gleissner, Lencses, Herder, RSO Stuttgart, Neville Marriner/
1987 / 1988)
+6.CD "Cellokonzerte":Cellokonzerte Nr. 1 & 2 (Miklos
Perenyi, Franz Liszt Kammerorchester, Janos Rolla / 1985)
+7.CD "Bläserkonzerte":Trompetenkonzert Es-Dur H7e: 1;
Oboenkonzert H7g: C1;Konzert für 2 Hörner Es-Dur H7d: 2
(R. Friedrich, Lencses, A. Friedrich, Marusza, Wiener Akademie,
RSO Stuttgart, Franz Liszt Kammerorchester, Martin Haselböck,
Neville Marriner, Janos Rolla / 1987-1994)
+8.CD "Orgelkonzerte":Orgelkonzerte H14 Nr. 11 & 12, H18 Nr.
1, 5,8 (Gabor Lehotka, Budapest Strings, Karoly Botvay / 1988)
+9.CD "Streichquartette":Streichquartette Nr. 17, 67, 77
(Kodaly Quartett)
+10.CD "Messe / Kantaten":Messe Nr. 14 "Harmoniemesse";
Kantaten "Miseri noi, misera patria" & "Berenice cha fai"
(Tokody, Takacs, Gulyas, Gregor, Schmiege, Bratislava PO,
Capella Coloniensis, Janos Ferencsik, Hans-Martin Linde)
+11.& 12.CD: Die Schöpfung (Seidl, Elsner, Volle,
Staatsphilharmonie Krakau, Roland Bader / 1992)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Joseph-Haydn-Capriccio-Edition/hnum/4547837

[Wakefield]

Yes, #37  IS in the Entwurf Katalog. If you have the New Grove Haydn you will find on page 96, the 5th entry down from the top of the page. In the column titled "Authentication" it says 'EK'. In Volume 1 of Robbins-Landon there is a picture of the title page and the caption says "Title page of the earliest recorded MS (manuscript) of a Haydn symphony - No. 37 - dated 1758; Schwarzenburg Archives, Krumau"   

Interesting information because, as I said before, I have read explicitly stated that that 1758 score is a copy, not a manuscript. Or am I misunderstanding "recorded MS" and it's actually a copy of a manuscript?

[Gurn Blanston]

Interesting information because, as I said before, I have read explicitly stated that that 1758 score is a copy, not a manuscript. Or am I misunderstanding "recorded MS" and it's actually a copy of a manuscript?

I wrote it down exactly as it says in the book because I'm not entirely sure exactly what it means either. To me, it means that it is a copy made by a copyist, probably in Haydn's employ. Not in his handwriting. Manuscript only means 'handwritten', an autograph is handwritten also but that contains the implication that it was handwritten by the composer. There are more than one manuscript of nearly every symphony, surely Haydn didn't write them all himself?     I'm not sure (as I often am not) exactly what you are trying to say here.

[Wakefield]

I'm not sure (as I often am not) exactly what you are trying to say here.

Well, approximately the same expressed by you:

I wrote it down exactly as it says in the book because I'm not entirely sure exactly what it means either.

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". 

[kishnevi]

This is possibly idle speculation--but can we be certain there weren't symphonies before #1?   meaning compositions from his early days which Haydn didn't think enough of to conserve, or even to mention?  That #1 is not "the first symphony I wrote" but "the earliest symphony of mine which I think is actually worth listening to"?

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". 

I think it merely means "earliest manuscript of which we know"--and could apply to either one written by Haydn or one written by a copyist.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, approximately the same expressed by you:

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". 

Well, if this statement goes by every standard of music history writing, then it means that this is a handwritten score (actually the first and second violin parts) written by a copyist.

"This manuscript comes from a collection that was originally pout together by Count Festetics. The symphonies include many holograph (handwritten) additions. It is of decisive importance because on the title page of each one, Haydn himself added numbers which appear from every standpoint to be chronological. .......  as far as the first 16 numbers that have survived, they are clearly numbered by Haydn himself. The principal fact that catches the eye on the list (opposite) is that the symphony marked as "1" is the same one that Haydn described to Griesinger as being his first..."  etc etc.

The one marked "2", it goes without saying, is the one we now call #37, and it is dated 1758, thus the dating of #1 to ~1757.

Bedtime. More tomorrow? 

[Mandryka]

After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1.  His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2.  I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

He's certainly one of my favourites in 83. Did you listen to that one?

On the negative side, apart from the sound, what I don't like is the way in the fast movements the accents are so strong and the dynamic contrasts are so marked. I get bored with the constant high level of heady excitement. Fey's 104 is a good example I think. Maybe the fact that 83 is a minor key symphony helps, I don't know.

By the way, someone ha just uploaded an excellent 95 from Kocsis on symphonyshare.

[Florestan]

Symphony No. 7 (19) in C major "Le midi"

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

The wanderings of our hero continue.

1. Adagio-Allegro: He's now employed in the service of a count and secretly in love with his lovely daughter. The whole count's gang of friends and servants is preparing to go hunting. In the middle of the hustle and bustle the young lady, foreseeing danger, asks her father permission to stay at home pretending illness, but the count, strongly seconded by the wanderer, reply that the weather outside is glorious and it'll cure any ill she might have. The horn calls for departure. After some more discussion and a second horn call, they all leave.

2. Recitativo. Adagio: Out in the heavy sun, the young lady and the wanderer have sought refuge in an isolated corner of the forest. There, under the trees and birds, their impossible idyll develops. He begs her to elope with him but she resists: much as she loves him, she can't desert her filial duty and leave her father. They resolve to love each eternally but Platonically.

3. Minuetto & Trio: The hunt is over. Back in the palace, there is merriment and dance. Everyone is happy but two: the young lady who has retired in her room, now ill for good, and the wanderer, who walks around the hall, alone and frustrated.

4. Finale. Allegro: The wanderer resigns his post with the count and joins the hunters as they leave the palace. Once more, the open sky, the forest, the hills and the whole world out there await him and he receives them with overwhelming joy.

Symphony No 8 (20) in G major "Le soir"

(same forces)

1. Allegro molto: After many more wanderings, the hero arrives at an inn just in time for dinner.

2. Andante: The lovely daughter of the inkeeper entreats him to settle down there, marry her and live a tranquil life together. Tired of his wanderings, he concedes.

3. Menuetto & Trio: Many years have passed since their wedding. He's now a solid bourgeois with a respectable family. Yet, his dreams at night are haunted by a vision of his morning youth: a mysterious and solemn procession of animals in the middle of the forest.

4. La tempesta. Presto: One night, right in the middle of the storm, his old wandering self suddenly awakens. He remembers his unrequited love for the count's daughter. He leaps from his bed, packs a few things and off to the dark road he is. Once a wanderer, always a wanderer.

(Talk about Romanticizing, but these thoughts have spontaneously arose in my mind after a few bars of every movement.  )

This trilogy should be listed among the greatest tone poems ever written. 

[Florestan]

First movement of the 4th.  Impressions welcomed!

Symphony no. 4 (5) in D major

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

1st movement: Hey, where's the soloist? After the orchestral introduction, one would expect it coming. It takes a little time to realize that actually the introduction is the main topic of the movement. 

2nd movement: Sadness is its middle name...

3rd movement: Well, it started as a concerto missing the soloist, it ends with a menuetto missing the trio; add to this the missing of winds in the Andante and to me is now clear --- it's all about absence, something (or perhaps someone?) is deeply missed physically, yet vividly present in the heart / mind.

Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

[Florestan]

No. 37, probably the second or even the first Haydn symphony conserved. 

Symphony no. 37 (2)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Sinfonia festiva? 

[Florestan]

These lines by Leo K., although posted in the Mahler thread, are relevant also here, methinks.

On the other hand, Mahler's music appears to be a continuation of Joseph Haydn, a gigantic-romantic version of Papa. Mahler's need to sweep up folk song, military musical recollections and country dances to form his symphonies put him surprisingly close to Haydn who, in his Symphony No. 100, was collecting earlier artifacts for similar reasons. Haydn brought "Turkish" military sounds to his London audience to spice music already livened by Austrian country dances and courtly musical references.

In both there is a sense of singing melodic line — of melodies rooted in song, as in Mahler's early symphonies, or in the chamber music of Haydn's. Another is a penchant for wresting substantial music from concise thematic ideas, for "developing" brief motifs in consequential ways. Finally, the works of each composer often entail arresting musical dramas. and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. Mahler's own compositions — his great symphonies and song cycles — seem, on first consideration, quite unlike those of Haydn. In contrast to the Classical proportions, demeanor and economy of Haydn's work, Mahler created on an expansive scale and ventured extremes of musical expression. But for all their superficial differences, the music of Haydn and Mahler displays a triumphant conclusion only at the end of a long and surprising musical journey.