Haydn's Haus

[Sergeant Rock]

Sold, Sarge! Snaffled up the mp3 album based on that sample.

Excellent, Karl. It should compliment your Fischer nicely.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Keats certainly means it for a compliment, meseems.

I'm not sure that it is in the same class as a similar quote from Tovey though, who specifically meant it in a musical way. That was his rather famous line about looking at the setup to a cadence or some such thing, and then challenging the reader to predict a bar or two before what it was going to cadence to and how it was going to be executed. Now, THAT was a compliment! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, two questions for you, please.

1. I would have expected that the manuscripts of all the Eszterhazy symphonies be kept and found in the Eszterhaza library, for 2 logical reasons: (a) they were specifically written for Nikolaus, so he must have felt somehow their owner, and (b) for further use: if the prince wanted to hear a specific symphony several years after it was composed, he went to the library, pull out the score and asked for it to be performed. I infer from the difficulty in cataloguing them that this was not the case. Why?

If he had kept them in the library in Eisenstadt he would have been ahead of the game, but he kept them in the opera/concert hall at Esterháza which burned to the ground in 1779 and took reams of scores along with it. Things like the baryton trios survived nicely, because they were kept... in the library.      I don't know that this is the only reason, but it is A reason. He did have a lot of symphonies in the archives, but not near all of them. There were even a few things known to survive because they were out being worked on (copied, emended etc) at the time of the fire. It was a tragedy.

2. Around 1810, how many of the symphonies were routinely performed in concerts in Austria and the German States?

TIA.

By 1810 I would say very few. In 1800 there were very many being performed, mostly the London's even then, which were still new works in Austria where they weren't published until the late 1790's. And some surprises, like #45 was still being performed. By 1810 though, tastes had changed irretrievably. Also, it should be pointed out that concert life in general was very nearly nil at that time (1805-1812) because of that pesky Napoleon. The people who liked to spend their money on music left town on the noon stage and took their $$$ with them. So it wasn't just Haydn who disappeared.

[Florestan]

If he had kept them in the library in Eisenstadt he would have been ahead of the game, but he kept them in the opera/concert hall at Esterháza which burned to the ground in 1779 and took reams of scores along with it. Things like the baryton trios survived nicely, because they were kept... in the library.      I don't know that this is the only reason, but it is A reason. He did have a lot of symphonies in the archives, but not near all of them. There were even a few things known to survive because they were out being worked on (copied, emended etc) at the time of the fire. It was a tragedy.

A tragedy indeed.

By 1810 I would say very few. In 1800 there were very many being performed, mostly the London's even then, which were still new works in Austria where they weren't published until the late 1790's. And some surprises, like #45 was still being performed. By 1810 though, tastes had changed irretrievably. Also, it should be pointed out that concert life in general was very nearly nil at that time (1805-1812) because of that pesky Napoleon. The people who liked to spend their money on music left town on the noon stage and took their $$$ with them. So it wasn't just Haydn who disappeared.

Well, that explains a lot in regards with that Hoffmann quote which, taken as an overall assessment of the whole symphonic output, is obviously false. But... He was born in 1776 in Konigsberg and from 1796 until 1810 (when he wrote the article which contains the quote) he lived in Glogau, Poznan, Plock, Warsaw and Berlin, this latter city being under French occupation at the time. Now, I wonder how many Haydn symphonies did he have the chance of either hearing, or studying the score, all these years? A handful would be an overestimation. It is obvious that his judgment is based on a very limited number of works*. And as such, it becomes even more obvious that, far from denigrating Haydn, he was in fact appreciating and praising him. He more likely than not heard very little of Haydn's music yet he calls him "the most humane of all composers", "immortal" and "genius". Now, if this sounds to you like "he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn" then words have lost their meanings. As for "The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards.", to attribute the "relative obscurity" of Haydn during the 19th century to Hoffmann's praising him in no uncertain terms is really weird. 

(* It must be noted that if Hoffmann heard #88, then his description of it is spot on.  )

The 'war' between Beethoven and Haydn (or their followers, more like) was bitter indeed on Beethoven's side, and like all 'musical wars' from that time, much hinged on being 'the winner'. Beethoven's followers, like Gluck's in 1760 Paris and Wagner's in 1870 Germany, were determined to vanquish all opposition to their man's musical supremacy.

Come on, Gurn, do you really believe this?  Where is the evidence for this war? Please give us some quotes from "Beethoven's followers"denigrating Haydn in order to exalt their master.

FWIW:

Perhaps the most important relationship in Beethoven's early life, and certainly the most famous, was the young pianist's tutorship under the Austrian composer Joseph Haydn. Beethoven studied with a number of composers and teachers in the period 1792–1795, including Antonio Salieri and Johann Georg Albrechtsberger. However, of all Beethoven's teachers, Haydn enjoyed the greatest reputation, having just returned from his first successful voyage to London. Possibly as early as his first trip to London in 1790, Haydn agreed to take on Beethoven as a student.

There is evidence that Haydn assigned his student composition exercises based on the Fux text Gradus ad Parnassum. During the course of the year, however, the relationship between the two men soured. According to contemporary accounts, the issue surfaced most notably upon the publication of Beethoven's first compositions, the Opus 1 piano trios. Wishing to assist the young composer, Haydn suggested that Beethoven include the phrase 'pupil of Haydn' underneath his name in order to garner advantage from Haydn's considerable fame. There is generally strong evidence of Haydn's goodwill toward Beethoven, including an interest in taking his pupil with him on his second London voyage, and the personal missives Haydn sent to Beethoven's early patron, Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Cologne.

Beethoven, however, seems to have harbored ill-will toward Haydn during some of his life. At the suggestion that he include the phrase pupil of Haydn, Beethoven bristled. According to the account left by Ferdinand Ries, "Beethoven was unwilling to because, as he said, although he had some instruction from Haydn he had never learned anything from him." The bad feelings produced by the Opus 1 Trios were compounded upon their first performance. Haydn, present in the audience, is reported to have recommended against the publication of the C minor Trio (Opus 1, no. 3) since he suspected the music would not gain public acceptance. Beethoven interpreted this as an indication of Haydn's envy and jealousy.

Despite this, however, Beethoven and Haydn remained on generally good terms until Haydn's death in 1809. Beethoven attended the concert in honor of Haydn's 76th birthday, and it is said that he "knelt down before Haydn and fervently kissed the hands and forehead of his old teacher".

Haydn's towering reputation in Vienna made it hard for Beethoven to be openly antagonistic. However, Haydn was also genuinely admiring of Beethoven's compositions, a trait that usually succeeded in earning Beethoven's goodwill.

In his renowned biography of Beethoven, Maynard Solomon notes that, in his later years, "Beethoven unfailingly referred to his old master in terms of reverence, regarding him as the equal" of Mozart and Bach.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but it seems to me that your hate of the Romantics is often based on misconceptions. 

[Gurn Blanston]

A tragedy indeed.

Well, that explains a lot in regards with that Hoffmann quote which, taken as an overall assessment of the whole symphonic output, is obviously false. But... He was born in 1776 in Konigsberg and from 1796 until 1810 (when he wrote the article which contains the quote) he lived in Glogau, Poznan, Plock, Warsaw and Berlin, this latter city being under French occupation at the time. Now, I wonder how many Haydn symphonies did he have the chance of either hearing, or studying the score, all these years? A handful would be an overestimation. It is obvious that his judgment is based on a very limited number of works*. And as such, it becomes even more obvious that, far from denigrating Haydn, he was in fact appreciating and praising him. He more likely than not heard very little of Haydn's music yet he calls him "the most humane of all composers", "immortal" and "genius". Now, if this sounds to you like "he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn" then words have lost their meanings. As for "The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards.", to attribute the "relative obscurity" of Haydn during the 19th century to Hoffmann's praising him in no uncertain terms is really weird. 

(* It must be noted that if Hoffmann heard #88, then his description of it is spot on.  )

Come on, Gurn, do you really believe this?  Where is the evidence for this war? Please give us some quotes from "Beethoven's followers"denigrating Haydn in order to exalt their master.

FWIW:

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but it seems to me that your hate of the Romantics is often based on misconceptions. 

I can't type in entire books, but I can recommend that you read "Chronicle & Works Vol 4 & 5" by Robbins-Landon if they are in your local library, or maybe his book on Beethoven (I have it (I think it is called "Documentary History"), haven't read it in a while but he quotes himself in the C & W book) and judge for yourself from the documents presented whether there was a war between the followers of the two. You will hum a different tune when you read the facts and no amount of making excuses will make it go away. I don't write things like that lightly, since I am as big a Beethoven fan as anyone. 

Just because I don't care for Romantic philosophy, doesn't mean I am skewed enough to impute all sorts of things to them without more reasons than that I think they were slightly deranged. Everything I write here is based on facts that I have read in reputable books. As far as the war on Haydn (not just the Beethovenians) I haven't even scratched the surface.

[Florestan]

I can't type in entire books, but I can recommend that you read "Chronicle & Works Vol 4 & 5" by Robbins-Landon if they are in your local library, or maybe his book on Beethoven (I have it (I think it is called "Documentary History"), haven't read it in a while but he quotes himself in the C & W book)

Duly noted, thanks.

[Florestan]

Gurn, I found this interesting reading that partially* supports your thesis:

Leon Botstein - The Demise of Philosophical Listening: Haydn in the 19th Century, in Haydn and His World (Elaine R. Sissman, ed.)

For anyone else interested it is online (with a few pages missing) here (scroll down to page 255): http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false

* partially, because it argues that the image of Haydn in the 19th century can be summarized thus: venerable as a historical figure but irrelevant for the present. You stress the latter and gloss over the former. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I found this interesting reading that partially* supports your thesis:

Leon Botstein - The Demise of Philosophical Listening: Haydn in the 19th Century, in Haydn and His World (Elaine R. Sissman, ed.)

For anyone else interested it is online (with a few pages missing) here (scroll down to page 255): http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false

* partially, because it argues that the image of Haydn in the 19th century can be summarized thus: venerable as a historical figure but irrelevant for the present. You stress the latter and gloss over the former. 

You're right about that, I did(do) gloss over the former, since it sounds more like lip service than true belief in Haydn's place as the sine qua non. Much the same as the attitude about Mozart as the automaton with the gift from god that allows him to use automatic writing to compose, instead of having to undergo the great struggles that real working artists have to do.

Perhaps I judge too harshly. They bring it on themselves with their asinine ideas.

PS - yes, that Bottstein article was very interesting. The entire bokk is quite commendable.

[Florestan]

As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

[Karl Henning]

As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

Well, the E^b and the C sonatas must rank right up there (Hob. XVI/50 & 52)

[Gurn Blanston]

As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

Well, today I would say that his Top 5 for me are;

Hob 16_52 Sonata #62 in Eb
Hob 16_32 Sonata #47 in b
Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb
Hob 16_46 Sonata #31  in Ab
Hob 16_20 Sonata #33 in c

Not necessarily in order, of course, that would be too much to attempt.

[Karl Henning]

Gurn, I cannot believe you scorn the C Major Sonata !!!! ; )

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I cannot believe you scorn the C Major Sonata !!!! ; )

Hmm, both pissy AND vinegary.   I scorn nothing, sir. I try to span the entire range. I like that one (#49/59 in E^b) rather a lot. Tough choices to work 62 down into 5 when you like them all....

[Gurn Blanston]

Speaking of sonatas, I  have been reading this book:



According to Newman, there was quite a bit of disapproval of "the sonata," especially among the French, for most of the Classic period.  There was a strongly held view that instrumental music in general, typified by the keyboard sonata, represented a decline from vocal music and this idea was expressed in no uncertain terms.  In fact the author quotes Haydn as saying near the end of his life that he wished he had written more vocal music than so many "sonatas, quartets and symphonies."

I do not share this sentiment.

That's a great book, I've recommended it several times. I am pretty sure that in that quote from Haydn he was referring to things like oratorios, masses and operas as opposed to Lieder and such. I could have stood a bit more of that, but underneath it all I am an instrumental lover too. What I really would have liked is for him to have had a different target audience for his keyboard works and trios, because late in life when he began to write for professionals and amateurs who were as good as professionals, he showed that he could kick some serious butt. Witness the Bartolozzi Trios and the Terese Jansen sonatas.

[Mandryka]

As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

I can say that the ones I've enjoyed the most over the past year or so are Hobs 2, 23, 19, 34, 37, 44 and 45. Mostly because I've come across interesting records.

[Leo K.]

Symphony No. 7 (19) in C major "Le midi"

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

The wanderings of our hero continue.

1. Adagio-Allegro: He's now employed in the service of a count and secretly in love with his lovely daughter. The whole count's gang of friends and servants is preparing to go hunting. In the middle of the hustle and bustle the young lady, foreseeing danger, asks her father permission to stay at home pretending illness, but the count, strongly seconded by the wanderer, reply that the weather outside is glorious and it'll cure any ill she might have. The horn calls for departure. After some more discussion and a second horn call, they all leave.

2. Recitativo. Adagio: Out in the heavy sun, the young lady and the wanderer have sought refuge in an isolated corner of the forest. There, under the trees and birds, their impossible idyll develops. He begs her to elope with him but she resists: much as she loves him, she can't desert her filial duty and leave her father. They resolve to love each eternally but Platonically.

3. Minuetto & Trio: The hunt is over. Back in the palace, there is merriment and dance. Everyone is happy but two: the young lady who has retired in her room, now ill for good, and the wanderer, who walks around the hall, alone and frustrated.

4. Finale. Allegro: The wanderer resigns his post with the count and joins the hunters as they leave the palace. Once more, the open sky, the forest, the hills and the whole world out there await him and he receives them with overwhelming joy.

Symphony No 8 (20) in G major "Le soir"

(same forces)

1. Allegro molto: After many more wanderings, the hero arrives at an inn just in time for dinner.

2. Andante: The lovely daughter of the inkeeper entreats him to settle down there, marry her and live a tranquil life together. Tired of his wanderings, he concedes.

3. Menuetto & Trio: Many years have passed since their wedding. He's now a solid bourgeois with a respectable family. Yet, his dreams at night are haunted by a vision of his morning youth: a mysterious and solemn procession of animals in the middle of the forest.

4. La tempesta. Presto: One night, right in the middle of the storm, his old wandering self suddenly awakens. He remembers his unrequited love for the count's daughter. He leaps from his bed, packs a few things and off to the dark road he is. Once a wanderer, always a wanderer.

(Talk about Romanticizing, but these thoughts have spontaneously arose in my mind after a few bars of every movement.  )

This trilogy should be listed among the greatest tone poems ever written. 

Thanks for getting the early symphonies of Haydn back on my mind! Nice thoughts. (and thanks for your mention of my post on the Mahler board)

[Florestan]

Piano Sonata in C major Hob XVI:50

Alfred Brendel live in Salzburg

I'm not sure what to make of it. The first movement seemed to me way too long (Brendel probably took all the repeats). The second movement I liked very much. The finale contains probably a joke, but I didn't get it. The whole thing seemed disconnected. I hate to say it but it doesn't hold a candle to Mozart's sonatas, not even to the early ones.

Piano Sonata in E flat major Hob XVI:52

Glenn Gould

Now we're talking! This gives a big lie to the 19th century gibberish. It has everything they missed in his music: fire, passion, longing.

Piano Sonata in F major Hob XVI:23

Vladimir Horowitz

That's great too! Festive fireworks, followed by a pensive stroll in the moonlit park and finally a joyful conversation over a glass of champagne.

Yep, that's it, Gurn is right: I am hopeless. 

[Florestan]

Thanks for getting the early symphonies of Haydn back on my mind! Nice thoughts. (and thanks for your mention of my post on the Mahler board)

You're welcome and thank you too.

[Florestan]

Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Not too much of a Sinfonia da chiesa, I think. The overall mood is far for solemn. Gorgeous horns in the second movement. Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder? Perhaps Prince Nikolaus called for him: "Joseph, are you done with the new symphony?" "Just finished the minuetto, Your Highness!" "All right, let's hear the whole thing!" "But it's not finished yet!" "Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time to finish it later!" 

[Sergeant Rock]

Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)
Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder?

A three movement structure was common in the early history of the symphony. 1, 2, 4. 9, 10 12, 16, 17, 19, 25, 26, 27, 30 are also in three movements.

Sarge