Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

A three movement structure was common in the early history of the symphony. 1, 2, 4. 9, 10 12, 16, 17, 19, 25, 26, 27, 30 are also in three movements.

I'm aware of that, it's just that ending it with a minuet leaves me asking: ok, then what next? I don't have the same feeling when the final movement is an allegro.

[Mandryka]

Piano Sonata in C major Hob XVI:50

Alfred Brendel live in Salzburg

I'm not sure what to make of it. The first movement seemed to me way too long (Brendel probably took all the repeats). The second movement I liked very much. The finale contains probably a joke, but I didn't get it. The whole thing seemed disconnected. I hate to say it but it doesn't hold a candle to Mozart's sonatas, not even to the early ones.

Piano Sonata in E flat major Hob XVI:52

Glenn Gould

Now we're talking! This gives a big lie to the 19th century gibberish. It has everything they missed in his music: fire, passion, longing.

Piano Sonata in F major Hob XVI:23

Vladimir Horowitz

That's great too! Festive fireworks, followed by a pensive stroll in the moonlit park and finally a joyful conversation over a glass of champagne.

Yep, that's it, Gurn is right: I am hopeless. 

I started to think seriously about Hob 23 Iwhen I heard this recording from Sokolov:

http://www.youtube.com/v/OZ3r_eL4EUg

Clearly it's so different from what you hear from Alan Curtis or Beghin. It made me wonder what exactly the function of this sonata was.

Your choice of word "champagne" is interesting -- I know someone who is very serious about exploring Haydn performance who is always looking for Champagne -- he doesn't like Bruggen, he does like Norrington etc.

Me I just wonder whether this tendency people have to want to see Haydn as writing elegant party music, chapagne, is all part of the conspiracy to trivialise his art. Like airheads at pea ut circuit private views. One of the reasons I'm interested in Harnoncourt and Bruggen  and even possibly here  (!) Sokolov is that they buck this trend. Norrington too in his own way, at least in some of  the London symphonies he recorded with the Stuttgart orchestra (like 95).

Anyway, even if he wrote 23 for courts, dilettantes and ladies, I'm not sure anything follows about the best way to play it. This could be a case where the music's meaning goes beyond the author's intentions.

By the way, Hob 2 is particularly interesting. It's probably the earliest pice of Haydn which I really love. Again I have no idea why he wrote it. Sv Richter plays it well.

[Bogey]

I'm aware of that, it's just that ending it with a minuet leaves me asking: ok, then what next? I don't have the same feeling when the final movement is an allegro.

I wrote this for the 4th back on the 15th:

Just spent the morning in the car with symphonies 4 (2) and 5 (4).

Symphony 4:

I like the "outburst" like feel of the first movement.  This paired with the silent periods (3:06 and 4:57) followed by a charge of music was the highlight.  My only problem with this composition was that the finale was a menuetto.  Made it feel like the last chapter of a who-dunnit mystery was missing.  Was this purposeful?  Was it lost?  Was it ripped up by  a patron or Haydn himself?  Papa needs a decent conspiracy theory like Mozart (death of) and Beethoven (Immortal Beloved), so I say we start here!


I totally agree with your take.

[mszczuj]

Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Not too much of a Sinfonia da chiesa, I think. The overall mood is far for solemn. Gorgeous horns in the second movement. Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder? Perhaps Prince Nikolaus called for him: "Joseph, are you done with the new symphony?" "Just finished the minuetto, Your Highness!" "All right, let's hear the whole thing!" "But it's not finished yet!" "Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time to finish it later!" 

Before minuet found his place as the 3rd movement of the cycle of 4 movements it had been used as finale in the cycle of 4 as well as of 3 movements. Different forms of sonata cycle and of symphony were in use for the entire second half of the 18th century even if the last years of it were dominated by the fast-slow-minuet-fast order. But it always was just the best solution not the rule. Rules of the Classical Era were invented by the Romantics - composers of the Classical Era thought on their works.

[Gurn Blanston]

Before minuet found his place as the 3rd movement of the cycle of 4 movements it had been used as finale in the cycle of 4 as well as of 3 movements. Different forms of sonata cycle and of symphony were in use for the entire second half of the 18th century even if the last years of it were dominated by the fast-slow-minuet-fast order. But it always was just the best solution not the rule. Rules of the Classical Era were invented by the Romantics - composers of the Classical Era thought on their works.

Absolutely right. Just like first real definition of 'sonata form' was written by Czerny well after Beethoven's death. Although it is also true that accustoming your ear to be prepared for a finale, even just a very short one, is a hard habit to break. As it happens though, this is what is playing on my player as I write this:

Hob 16_22 Sonata in E for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuetto  (Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hammerflügel)

[Wakefield]

We were talking about this some days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/v/M1NpE-TNilo

[Gurn Blanston]

Very nice, Gordo. Thanks,

Note in that one picture at the 9:50 mark that Sigi is holding his cello di spalla. I have seen pictures of it before but in this one he is surrounded by people holding more typical instruments, and so you get a better idea of the scale of it. Must be challenging to really show out on it.

[Leo K.]

I hope La Petite Bande is able to continue.  Recently there was an announcement that they had lost their government funding.

It truly is hard times these days, sad to hear that.

[Florestan]

Symphony in G minor Hob I:39 (38)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

In the presentation, Gurn spoke about coherence problems in this symphony, but I find none. It's like a contest between two worlds: a new one, stormy and passionate, which Haydn just discovered (within himself, most probably) and whose unknown territories he is eager to map, and the old one, gallant and tranquil which tries to hold him back. 

[Florestan]

Hey Gurn, --- in post #3 in the blog you list Hob I:29 as being "early Eszterhazy", not S&D as you have it in post #6. Which is correct? 

[Florestan]

Symphony in F major Hob I:58 (42)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

If we hear this as a continuation of Hob I:39, it might look like in the first two movements the gallant world won him over, but the Trio whispers "Not quite yet" and the Finale yells "You wish, old lady!". 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey Gurn, --- in post #3 in the blog you list Hob I:29 as being "early Eszterhazy", not S&D as you have it in post #6. Which is correct? 

Depends which book you read. That is one that the date has been moved around on several times, but the currently accepted date is after #39. While that doesn't make it (on its own) an S&D work, it was composed after that era had begun, so at least it merits being looked at both way, which is what I was trying to do.

Dating Haydn's early works is among the more frustrating exercises one can ever undertake.

[SonicMan46]

Gurn - I saw the Coin disc below (far left) posted by you in the 'listening thread', and became curious about 'how many' of these Lira Organizzate (LO) works were composed by Papa Joe & what recordings are available?

The 2 CDs that I own w/ the LO are also shown below - the middle one are many of the same performers although only one work w/ 2 lyres is used, i.e. Hob. II:32; the other CD w/ Hugo Ruf, I have as only a MP3 disc (as I recall, Tony S. sent me some LP notes which I put together & posted in one of the other threads).

Now, I also have 2 CDs of the Hob. II works (in the 20s & 30s) of the Notturni (Klocker & CC and Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli), but neither of those recordings use the LO - Dave


   

[Karl Henning]

Organizzate, ma non troppo, eh? ; )

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - I saw the Coin disc below (far left) posted by you in the 'listening thread', and became curious about 'how many' of these Lira Organizzate (LO) works were composed by Papa Joe & what recordings are available?

The 2 CDs that I own w/ the LO are also shown below - the middle one are many of the same performers although only one work w/ 2 lyres is used, i.e. Hob. II:32; the other CD w/ Hugo Ruf, I have as only a MP3 disc (as I recall, Tony S. sent me some LP notes which I put together & posted in one of the other threads).

Now, I also have 2 CDs of the Hob. II works (in the 20s & 30s) of the Notturni (Klocker & CC and Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli), but neither of those recordings use the LO - Dave


   

Somewhere earlier on in this thread I posted a listing of all versions of these works (the notturni & the concerti) in both Naples & London versions. I actually am quite fond of the Klocker in the Naples version, although he uses a little barrel organ (IIRC) instead of Lira. On the Delirium disk, as you point out, they missed a fine opportunity to use the 2 Lira that they had specially made for them and played 2 of the 3 works in the London version, which is very odd given that everyone and their brother has done the London version already.   

I listened to part of the disc Gurn posted about,


but did not much care for it.  It sounded to my ears somewhat like an "omm-pah-pah" band.

Possibly an acquired taste. The London versions, which substitute an oboe and flute for the Lira are probably easier to listen to, although when you see/hear the original Naples versions, it is rather amazing what Haydn was able to accomplish for such primitive instruments! 

[SonicMan46]

Somewhere earlier on in this thread I posted a listing of all versions of these works (the notturni & the concerti) in both Naples & London versions. I actually am quite fond of the Klocker in the Naples version, although he uses a little barrel organ (IIRC) instead of Lira. On the Delirium disk, as you point out, they missed a fine opportunity to use the 2 Lira that they had specially made for them and played 2 of the 3 works in the London version, which is very odd given that everyone and their brother has done the London version already.   

Well, I did a search and found the post mentioned above - about a year ago (Jan 2012); SO, Haydn wrote 2 different sets of works for this instrument, i.e. Hob II: 25, 26, 29-32 and Hob. VII (quoted below from a Wiki listing) which can be played w/ the 2 lira (or an equivalent, such as the small organs in the Klocker recording) or w/ oboe/flute substitution - just trying to re-clarify these works in my mind!     

Thanks - Dave

For 2 lire organizzate

These concertos were written for Ferdinand IV, King of Naples whose favorite instrument was the lira organizzata[3] -- an instrument similar to the hurdy gurdy. Modern performances use flute and oboe (or two flutes) as the soloists.

    Concerto No. 1 in C major, Hob.:VIIh/1, (1786)
    Concerto No. 2 in G major, Hob.:VIIh/2, (1786)
    Concerto No. 3 in G major, Hob.:VIIh/3, (1786)
    Concerto No. 4 in F major, Hob.:VIIh/4, (1786)
    Concerto No. 5 in F major, Hob.:VIIh/5, (1786) second and third movement later adapted to be part of Symphony No. 89

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I did a search and found the post mentioned above - about a year ago (Jan 2012); SO, Haydn wrote 2 different sets of works for this instrument, i.e. Hob II: 25, 26, 29-32 and Hob. VII (quoted below from a Wiki listing) which can be played w/ the 2 lira (or an equivalent, such as the small organs in the Klocker recording) or w/ oboe/flute substitution - just trying to re-clarify these works in my mind!     

Thanks - Dave

Yes, when he went to London, he rescored them for more general use. He obviously replaced the Liras with oboe/flute (flute/flute in one of them), and also dropped the 2 clarinets in favor of violins, and added a double bass (IIRC). Result is a far different sound. Being the essentially crude person I can be at times, I prefer the original sound better. Same great music though. Note that the Romance in Concerto #3 is also the Andante in Symphony #100.

[SonicMan46]

I listened to part of the disc Gurn posted about,



but did not much care for it.  It sounded to my ears somewhat like an "omm-pah-pah" band.

Hey Sanantonio - checkout the 'Old Musical Instruments' thread HERE for a lot more information on the lira instruments; if you can find snippets of the 'Lira Concerti' (i.e. Hob. VII listing I just left in a previous post) w/ Hugo Ruf, might be more to your liking?  Also, the Hob. II recordings w/ either Klocker (who uses 2 positive organs) or Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli are both well done.  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Sonic Dave, I have that Ruf recording, and I agree the instrument is very interesting ... looking.     But I do not consider myself a fan of the sound.

...and Ruf uses just one Lira instead of two. I have to say that this disk, the Lira di Napoli one, is the first disk ever to use 2 real Liras.

San, it's a hurdy gurdy; what's to like?      I read an article the other day that the King of Naples, who was a real animal by all accounts, chose that instrument to sponsor because it was as low class as you could get. A cultural statement. Haydn never actually heard one, he wrote this music based on a written description of what the potential was (range, key etc.). That in itself is a pretty good feat. But he absolutely loved the music that he wrote for it. He kept copies of the originals in his personal collection (which was not his usual habit) and managed to reuse it at every opportunity.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually what I have is Manfred Huss - and I like it a good bit better than the one Gurn linked to.

[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]

Yes, that's the London version. It certainly has a much more smooth and elegant feel to it, eh?