Haydn's Haus

[TheGSMoeller]

I've been listening to the various Haydn Op. 77 recordings on Spotify and found one by the Edding Quartet which sounded very good to my ears. 

I Googled them and found this amazing information:

All fantastic news to me.   

Anyone else aware of this new period instrument quartet?  Spotify has the Haydn recording.

Thanks, S.A., I will be on Spotify later and will definitely look for it, I've been enjoying the Op.77 quite a bit myself lately. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I've been listening to the various Haydn Op. 77 recordings on Spotify and found one by the Edding Quartet which sounded very good to my ears. 

I Googled them and found this amazing information:

All fantastic news to me.   

Anyone else aware of this new period instrument quartet?  Spotify has the Haydn recording.

SA,
Thanks for that info. Never heard of 'em, but that means nothing. I just bought it at Amazon, we'll give it a spin next week.

[TheGSMoeller]

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. 

I got it from import-CD's for 11.50. I don't buy Haydn (or Mozart) as downloads, but I get other stuff. Since most of my playing time comes on the MP3 player anyway, might as well. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. 

There is a another plus to buying the mp3 instead of the disc. You won't have to look at the ugly cover 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

There is a another plus to buying the mp3 instead of the disc. You won't have to look at the ugly cover 

Sarge

Good solid point there, Sarge. I'm not sure at what time in his life Haydn looked like that. And I thought I had all the pictures, too...

[Karl Henning]

I know I can never catch you up, Gurn. But it is always an enlightening experience when I give it a try : )

[Mandryka]

Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

[Wakefield]

Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

[Opus106]

There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

Thank you for the link.

[Gurn Blanston]

Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually.  The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death.  I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. 

[Mandryka]

Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually.  The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death.  I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. 

This is speculation on my part, but don't you see a connection between stylus fanatasticus and CPE Bach's later style?  Just because they're  so free and improvisatory. Of course CPEB may have been aware of the German Toccata tradition through other composers, but more likely he'd have been aware of his farther's Buxtehude influenced works.

My own feeling is that if there is a Bach/Haydn influence, it'll come through the stylus fantasticus rather than through anything to do with counterpoint.

I repeat, this is all speculative, made on the basis of too casual listening probably. And I have no background in music history.

[Opus106]

My own feeling is that if there is a Bach/Haydn influence, it'll come through the stylus fantasticus rather than through anything to do with counterpoint.

Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.


Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

[Gurn Blanston]

Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.


Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

I think Haydn's early variations for keyboard are somewhat free and improvisatory. Listen to Hob 17:1, the Capriccio & Variations on the folk song "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein" (It takes 8 Strong Men). It's from 1765, and I feel like it is very fluid in what it is going to do next. Not to the extent of CPE Bach, of course, but Bach is famously non-formal even in his so-called 'sonatas'.



Disclaimer: no background in music theory; an amateur but substantial one in music history. (since we're into full disclosure today. )

[Opus106]

I think Haydn's early variations for keyboard are somewhat free and improvisatory. Listen to Hob 17:1, the Capriccio & Variations on the folk song "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein" (It takes 8 Strong Men). It's from 1765, and I feel like it is very fluid in what it is going to do next.

Of course, there will always be a piece here or there -- they don't directly jump into the Pool of Profundity early on, do they? From what I read of Mandryka's post -- and I could easily be wrong -- he seems to suggest that you can draw a connection between Sr. and Haydn by looking through much of the latter's oeuvre.

[Wakefield]

Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually.  The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death.  I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. 

Yes, datation issues are fundamental here. But no doubt those two manuscripts are tremendously suggestive: the B-Minor Mass (the "Catholic" Mass, by opposition to Lutheran, short masses) and the WTC, as both of them are currently considered as crowns of his vocal and keyboard outputs, respectively. I think it was not a cheap thing to get those manuscripts in Haydn's times, which maybe could be indicative of a strong interest on them.

Additionally, as the paper suggests, I think the role of Bach as an educator was uninterrupted since his death. Certainly he disappeared as an artist "on stage", but also apparently he never lost the acknowledgement as an educator (which brings again towards the WTC). There is an interesting essay of the South African Nobel Prize  J. M. Coetzee about this issue.

As usual, a lot of unanswered questions. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Of course, there will always be a piece here or there -- they don't directly jump into the Pool of Profundity early on, do they? From what I read of Mandryka's post -- and I could easily be wrong -- he seems to suggest that you can draw a connection between Sr. and Haydn by looking through much of the latter's oeuvre.

Yeah, I was trying to avoid going there because my knowledge of Baroque alleyways is abysmally dim. I have some fiddle playing but it was already old when Sebastian was born, I think. When I listen to Haydn  I only hear Haydn. I'm not skilled at that other stuff.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, datation issues are fundamental here. But no doubt those two manuscripts are tremendously suggestive: the B-Minor Mass (the "Catholic" Mass, by opposition to Lutheran, short masses) and the WTC, as both of them are currently considered as crowns of his vocal and keyboard outputs, respectively. I think it was not a cheap thing to get those manuscripts in Haydn's times, which maybe could be indicative of a strong interest on them.

Additionally, as the paper suggests, I think the role of Bach as an educator was uninterrupted since his death. Certainly he disappeared as an artist "on stage", but also apparently he never lost the acknowledgement as an educator (which brings again towards the WTC). There is an interesting essay of the South African Nobel Prize  J. M. Coetzee about this issue.

As usual, a lot of unanswered questions. 

The likelihood is that they were a gift. Haydn bought music by the ream, but he also received a lot of it as gifts. Sometimes these things are documented, but clearly not here else the guy would have noted it.

Beethoven became a great keyboard player due to playing the WTC every day from early age. This is a well-documented part of his biography. So no doubt the pedantic aspect of Bach lived on. I wouldn't be even vaguely surprised to discover that Haydn had the WTC since he was a boy. Seriously. Just never read anything about it (and I've read a lot!). I would be very surprised to discover that he had the b minor mass early on though. That is a long way from being a teaching tool; almost had to be part of his art collection.

[Mandryka]

Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.


Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

Well take the second movement Hob 19 or the first movement of symphony 80. (Two of my favouritest pieces of music in the world)

[Opus106]

Well take the second movement Hob 19 or the first movement of symphony 80. (Two of my favouritest pieces of music in the world)

Thanks, but Hob 19? (Do you mean the D major piano sonata, No. 30?) And I haven't yet heard the D minor symphony, so this should be a good excuse.