Haydn's Haus

[Geo Dude]

So, Gurn, heard this one?

[asin]B0087YSODQ[/asin]

Weil's been doing a whole run of new stuff with that orchestra.  London Symphonies, The Creation, The Seasons, Seven Last Words...

[Gurn Blanston]

So, Gurn, heard this one?

[asin]B0087YSODQ[/asin]

Weil's been doing a whole run of new stuff with that orchestra.  London Symphonies, The Creation, The Seasons, Seven Last Words...

No, not a single one of those disks in that series. Not to say I won't though. They look interesting.

[Karl Henning]

Saw that, it's been there for a couple of weeks. Pretty amazing, eh? 

Puts me in mind of some lovely dialogue in Wodehouse:

"Good heavens, Jeeves; is there anything you don't know?"

"I could not say, sir."

[Gurn Blanston]

Puts me in mind of some lovely dialogue in Wodehouse:

"Good heavens, Jeeves; is there anything you don't know?"

"I could not say, sir."

Well, I had taken advantage of it too. We'll see if this 'amazing new' vendor is actually the Mozart Mafia or not.

[Geo Dude]

Judging for sound, the Weil is fantastic.  The orchestra sounds simply amazing.  I consider it better than Spering, Kuijken, Pearlman, McCreesh and only Gardiner, Jacobs and Hengelbrock are in the same league.  But judging on all other elements, with so many variables, i.e. singers, tempos, interpretation, the field of PI Die Schopfung recordings is very close.

Weil achieves a beautiful clarity and balance among the instruments; the entire sound is one of immediacy and presence, whereas others sound blurry and distant.  Haydn's orchestration in the "Introduction" is extraordinarily unique for the period and Weil, as well as Hengelbrock, Gardiner and Jacobs exploit the writing exceedingly well.  But I might give the edge to Weil.

My two cents.

Thank you for your thoughts.  One of these days someone is going to need to do a face off between Weil 1 and Weil 2.  As far as I'm concerned everything the man touches turns to gold, so I'm sure they're both great, but that new series of stuff is very interesting indeed.

[Brian]

So the SWR radio group has just started their own record label of archival recordings, SWRmusic, and among the first batch of releases is a massive swathe of Haydn symphonies from the SWR Orchestra, Baden-Baden und Freiburg, under Ernest Bour (who died in 2001). I don't know if they're releasing physical CDs, but there are downloads of 9 discs so far (for example).

[Gurn Blanston]

So the SWR radio group has just started their own record label of archival recordings, SWRmusic, and among the first batch of releases is a massive swathe of Haydn symphonies from the SWR Orchestra, Baden-Baden und Freiburg, under Ernest Bour (who died in 2001). I don't know if they're releasing physical CDs, but there are downloads of 9 discs so far (for example).

Rather on the pricey side, but looking interesting.  I have some Bour doing Mozart that is quite competent. Thanks for the tip, Brian.

[Mandryka]

Part 15

1766

A watershed year for Haydn, and coincidentally, for us also. To start with, his immediate superior, Gregor Werner, passed away. Although Haydn genuinely respected him (he really was a great composer of church music and stile antico), he also was holding Haydn back. True, Haydn had continually built up the orchestra in both quantity and quality, and drilled them constantly until they became one of the finest private orchestras in Europe. But Werner wasn't satisfied, as we saw in 1765 when he wrote the letter to the Prince about Haydn's failure to maintain any discipline, and also his failure to compose sufficient music (!!).

The side benefit for us, when we are looking back to those years, is that Haydn sat down and wrote a list (the Entwurf-Katalog). He wrote it in response to the criticism that "he is not applying himself diligently to composition", but the benefit derives to us. It is a 2-edged sword though, since on the one hand it gives by telling us what he remembers having written up until then. On the other hand, it takes away because it doesn't say "in 1758 I wrote this...", and this has led to the general statement seen so often in these music chronologies "composed before 1766".

However, the biggest change of all for everyone who was a part of the Prince's household is that in 1766 Esterhazy Palace was opened for business! Eisenstadt was, from this point on, a place to spend the winter. Gone with it was the easy access to Vienna that Haydn had enjoyed (not as though he got the chance to take advantage of it very often!). The Prince was absolutely enamored of Esterhazy, and why not? It was one of the most beautiful and fully featured edifices ever constructed, even putting Versailles in the shade. For Haydn, life would never be the same, for better or for worse.

The music of 1766

Hob 01_028 Symphony in A
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood


Hob 10_11 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 11_013 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_016 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_017 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_018 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_019 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_020 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_021 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   
Hob 11_024 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1   

Hob 11_025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_026 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_027 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_028 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_029 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   
Hob 11_030 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2   

Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons   

Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone   
Esterhazy Ensemble


Hob 14_01 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss


Hob 16_45 Sonata #29  in Eb for Keyboard
   Christine Schornsheim


Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
   Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman
Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
   Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam


Hob 28_02 Opera buffa in 2 Acts "La Cantarina"
   Palmer Chamber Orchestra / Palmer with Harris / Garrison / Fortunato / Guyer



OK, so what do we have here, Herr Haydn? 1 symphony?  Yes, well due to the catalog mentioned above, there were originally 20 or so assigned to 1766. Once they were all tracked down, the number shrank substantially.  It is a nice one though, glad to have it. Not frequently recorded as it isn't part of any trend, just  a very nice symphony. This Hogwood recording is, in fact, the only PI one that I have. Of course, there are a few MI ones, I have Fischer for example.

There are a few highlights to point out in the baryton works too. He was still writing things other than trios at that time. Some of them are especially interesting. There are several duets for 2 barytons, probably played by the Prince and Weigl. Here is another fine opportunity to ponder the mystery that was Hoboken. Here we find Hob 10_11, a duet in D major for 2 Barytons. Section 10 ( X ) is indicated to be for "Barytons with various instruments". Section 12 (XII), OTOH, is for Baryton Duets. And we saw some in 1764 and again this year. How this stray wondered off the ranch I can't figure out. 

That said, a nice thing that I like here is Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone. They are in a variety of available keys, and can be played from beginning to end as one piece. The violone, for those unfamiliar with the term, was the functional equivalent of a double bass. It is actually a very large bass viol, thus it will have a flat back and usually have frets and anywhere from 4-6 strings. Where it fails in the volume competition with the actual bass (which is a member of the violin family) it makes up in having a beautiful mellow tone that blends in well in chamber ensembles. Haydn used them a lot, so most of the time, especially in the early works, when you see 'Baßo' (basso), he means Violone.

Here also we find the only member of Hob 14 (XIV) that varies from what has been the standard scoring (2 violins, cembalo & Baßo), the #1 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo. A very nice little piece, and this being the only recording of it that I have found so far (PI or otherwise). Bless you, St Manfred of Huss....

I put 2 versions of Hob 18_03 because it was originally composed for a harpsichord (cembalo), but even in very early times, by the 1770's, it, along with 18_04 were played on the fortepiano in Vienna and elsewhere. No harm in having both versions here. Koopman's is a peach, and exceptional in being one of the few actually performed on the correct instrument. Brautigam's is precisely what we have come to expect from him, wonderful power, and with great accompaniment from the Copenhageners.

And finally, another opera. "La Cantarina" (The Diva or The Songstress). Well, not really an opera in the strict sense, but an intermezzo. As such, it lacks an overture, but Palmer has chosen here to use Symphony #1, a perfect (and likely authentic) choice for this work. It is about an old man who is a music teacher and a young lady who is his student (aren't they all?). A friend pretends to be her mother and convince the teacher to marry her (and give her all his money, of course). Hilarity ensues. There are 4 arias and 2 quartets (one at the end of each act). Most fortunately, this is a good performance. It would be a really suck situation if it wasn't, because there aren't any others. 

Delighted to hear what y'all think of any of this music. The Stürm und Dräng is nearly upon us, but let's enjoy what we have right now. Some very nice stuff here.

One piece which I think comes from 1766 is the keyboard sonata in G Hob xvi/6, no. 13, which I think is astonishingly good. I only know it through Yuko Wataya's CD.

So what is it, style-wise? Stürm und Drang, Empfindsammer, Galant, none or all of these things?

Maybe there are other interesting recordings. If so, please say

[Gurn Blanston]

One piece which I think comes from 1766 is the keyboard sonata in G Hob xvi/6, no. 13, which I think is astonishingly good. I only know it through Yuko Wataya's CD.

So what is it, style-wise? Stürm und Drang, Empfindsammer, Galant, none or all of these things?

Maybe there are other interesting recordings. If so, please say

The problem with dating Haydn's early works is twofold; he usually didn't date his autographs (which frequently no longer exist), and when he wrote his first Entwürf Katalog, his concern wasn't so much for dating things as it was for merely verifying their existence with a little description plus an incipit. As a result, many items that appear there first, such as this one in question, are given the default dating of the appearance of the catalog; i.e. - 1765-66. However, since then it has been determined (without my reference books I can't be more specific about how this one was done) that the actual date of composition was ~1760. Thus you should find some possibly more useful information in that year's essay (although I haven't checked to be sure).

I will say that Haydn's output, especially his earlier works, tend to fall closer to galant than to most other sub-genres, however, in toto I would say that he tends to his own style and resists pigeonholing far more than any of his contemporaries. Possibly the seeds of his greatness lie there, eh? 

[Mandryka]

The problem with dating Haydn's early works is twofold; he usually didn't date his autographs (which frequently no longer exist), and when he wrote his first Entwürf Katalog, his concern wasn't so much for dating things as it was for merely verifying their existence with a little description plus an incipit. As a result, many items that appear there first, such as this one in question, are given the default dating of the appearance of the catalog; i.e. - 1765-66. However, since then it has been determined (without my reference books I can't be more specific about how this one was done) that the actual date of composition was ~1760. Thus you should find some possibly more useful information in that year's essay (although I haven't checked to be sure).

I will say that Haydn's output, especially his earlier works, tend to fall closer to galant than to most other sub-genres, however, in toto I would say that he tends to his own style and resists pigeonholing far more than any of his contemporaries. Possibly the seeds of his greatness lie there, eh? 

I've got the keyboard trios and other keyboard sonatas with me from your list for 1760. Just listenng fairly informally, to me the G major sonata seems way more inspired.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've got the keyboard trios and other keyboard sonatas with me from your list for 1760. Just listenng fairly informally, to me the G major sonata seems way more inspired.

Well, he seemed to "advance" by fits and starts, although that's a deceiving way to look at it. It isn't like there is an evolution of quality, the quality is always there. Take for example the early string divertimento quartets. They weren't lesser quality because of his age, they were simply a different style. Sometimes the musical ideas are finer, which I think is reflected in your Hob 16:13 reaction, but the quality of the writing is always good. Any time I can quash the idea of "evolving towards Classicism", I have to take advantage. Not like you were going there, of course.

[Gurn Blanston]

When I read these sentences it made think that from the vantage point of the 21st century, and after well over a century of "The Big Tune" from everything from Chopin to the current Pop songs, I think it is natural for us to pick up our ears at a nice melody.  But, for Haydn, his themes were the raw material for development and may not exhibit the same kind of melodic arc, or range.  Still, what he did with them was masterful throughout his career.

Yes, that's on the lines of what I am thinking. It is a reaction, I guess, to the argument that I frequently see in the Haydn literature that he and Mozart were just piddling along, striving towards a Classical ideal as though they knew it was there and were trying to get there. Of course, it goes without saying that the ideal was only realized in hindsight.  This is not to say that Haydn didn't get better with age, but that isn't evolution, per se, it's just development.

[Wakefield]

[...] Take for example the early string divertimento quartets. They weren't lesser quality because of his age, they were simply a different style[...]

Yes, the "evolutionism" in art or/and considering a single human life, it's a quite weird idea.

BTW, some days ago I posted my pleasure with this disc, principally of lute arrangements of divertimentos, hidden inside the big Brilliant Classics box set.

Haydn Edition - Works for Lute and strings [CD 132]



Hidden among the other content of the big Haydn box set, this disc is a true jewel. It's truth that almost all its content is composed of arrangements for lute of cassations or quartetti (some times called "string quartets") and, AFAIK, just the Sonata a 3 in F Hob. IV:F2 was originally written for lute. But this hasn't importance at all because this disc is pure Haydn in spirit and it's masterly played by Jakob Lindberg and his partners.

BTW, this recording was originally a Bis production:

[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

Apparently, it also knew a release on the Musical Heritage Society.

Warmly recommended. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, the "evolutionism" in art or/and considering a single human life, it's a quite weird idea.

BTW, some days ago I posted my pleasure with this disc, principally of lute arrangements of divertimentos, hidden inside the big Brilliant Classics box set.

Hi, Gordo!

Yes, I have both of those disks (well, the Brilliant, of course, but the BIS too). As arrangements they are, as you say, very interesting. Given that composers didn't have nearly the rabid determination to have the "right" instrument play their works back then, the lute is very suitable for these and I thought sounded very nice too.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I am not prepared yet to comment with any actual intelligence, but my first listens to the Boston Baroque account of Die Schöpfung (I don't call it odd of Marty Pearlman to elect to sing it in German, only the notes trying to make the case that es muß sein I find a bit dubious) have been unalloyed pleasure.  Sorry I 'missed' the centenary, but, dadfrazzanabit, I was on vacation.

I am guessing that, bottom line, he decided to sing the German because, well, Boston has the Handel and Haydn Society who (I should think)  make a practice of singing it in English.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I am not prepared yet to comment with any actual intelligence, but my first listens to the Boston Baroque account of Die Schöpfung (I don't call it odd of Marty Pearlman to elect to sing it in German, only the notes trying to make the case that es muß sein I find a bit dubious) have been unalloyed pleasure.  Sorry I 'missed' the centenary, but, dadfrazzanabit, I was on vacation.

I am guessing that, bottom line, he decided to sing the German because, well, Boston has the Handel and Haydn Society who (I should think)  make a practice of singing it in English.

Ah, I've been waiting for you to post on this, Karl. I got this last week and listened over weekend also. I must say, the singing on it really pleased my ears, and the playing was quite fine too. I'm not sure that I was/wasn't familiar with the soloists, but I should like to be.

Martin's arguments for using German aren't specious, the one, solid and irrefutable fact is that the music was composed on and about the German text, and thus falls more easily to the ear that way. Haydn could (and did) want the English to be published simultaneously, and desire authenticity for both versions, but the fact remains, he composed from the German first, and there is no way to avoid the music following the textual accents and all.

In order to sound so good, McCreesh had to rewrite a fair amount of the English text.

In any case, I liked it.

[Karl Henning]

Groovy.

[Karl Henning]

Well, so now I wonder if maybe the H&H sing it auf deutsch.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, so now I wonder if maybe the H&H sing it auf deutsch.

Don't know, probably not though. Usually in English speaking countries it is done in English. I think that nowadays the rather stilted language involved is considered rather more endearing than insulting.

[Karl Henning]

Well, and as the notes do record:

. . . the writing is often awkward and stilted, where it is not borrowing directly from Milton or the bible [sic].  This was already recognized and criticized by British listeners and critics during Haydn's lifetime. One publisher wrote, 'It is lamentable to see such divine music joined with such miserable broken English ...' Today, with audiences used to hearing the works of Bach, Mozart and others in their original languages, it seems preferable to present this oratorio in its stronger, original German text.

Gosh, did he really cast the bible in lower case? I mean, a bible, maybe, but here it strikes me as bad tone and tendentious.