Haydn's Haus

[Brahmsian]

I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

Pretty darn good use of $20, that DRD box. 

Brian, No. 67 was a standout for me as well.  I loved that finale, with the Adagio e cantibile in the middle! 

[Mandryka]

If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher  is worth taking I think

http://vinylfatigue.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/indefatigable-champion-of-music-of-his.html

[Gurn Blanston]

I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

I've heard too many wonderful things but these were among the most recent and memory-sticking:

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

I got this from Robbins-Landon, but I see someone quoted it wholesale on Wiki;

The trio of the minuet is scored for two solo violins each playing con sordino on single strings. The first violin plays the melody on the E string and the second violin tunes its G string down to F (scordatura too!) and plays a drone on the open string

Which jibes up exactly with what Sarge was saying about making a rustic 'hurdy-gurdy' sort of sound.

Of course, I'm not one who is given to rants, but if I was, this would be a great representative of the symphonies of the late 1770's in which Haydn expunged any last vestige of his earlier, 'stormy' period and moved on to works that were more theatrical and very much more in a popular idiom than previously. Musicologists from St. Foix (who conjured up the stupid term Stürm und Dräng  ) right through my hero Robbins-Landon, who was otherwise quite sane, totally skewered these works as a lightweight bunch of frilly bagatelles which were decidedly inferior to the works that came before and after.  My own belief is that they totally missed the point. Since S & D was an artificial construct in any case, I would be stunned to discover that Haydn considered them to be a major step in his career path. They were a musical avenue that he was exploring at the time. And now he was exploring a different one, which involved solid entertainment for his audience (oh, the shame!).

I agree with all who are enamored of this and many other works of this time period, like the two sets of 3 symphonies each (76-78 & 79-81) the preceded the Paris Symphonies. They were among the very first works that Haydn sold on his own, legally within his contract. And he had no problem doing it. People back then knew what was good when they heard it, no pretension involved. 

[Sergeant Rock]

If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher  is worth taking I think

http://vinylfatigue.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/indefatigable-champion-of-music-of-his.html

Thanks for the link. Listening to it now...and it sounds fabulous. The guy did a great job digitalizing the LP.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher  is worth taking I think

I've listened to it twice now, and compared it to Fischer. I find it quite disappointing for several reasons. The horns are so backwardly placed they might as well have taken the day off. They literally can't be heard much of the time. (sanantonio might approve, though    Fischer's horns are not only upfront and present, they blare like foghorns in the Minuet  ) The unusual Trio (even shocking in the Fischer) is played too sweetly in the Sacher version, the "drone" violin simply too discreet to make much of a rustic impression. The drone is given equal prominence in Fischer's performance which results in a very rough sound like a hurdy-gurdy (which is what I assume Haydn was going for). In the last movement Sacher doesn't observe the Allegro's repeat which means the Adagio section starts after less than a minute and half, making it much less startling, I think. And then, instead of using the string trio Haydn asks for, he employs his entire string section, playing down and ignoring the originality of Haydn's creation.

So, this is not a performance of 67 I'd recommend.

Sarge

[Mandryka]

I've listened to it twice now, and compared it to Fischer. I find it quite disappointing for several reasons. The horns are so backwardly placed they might as well have taken the day off. They literally can't be heard much of the time. (sanantonio might approve, though    Fischer's horns are not only upfront and present, they blare like foghorns in the Minuet  ) The unusual Trio (even shocking in the Fischer) is played too sweetly in the Sacher version, the "drone" violin simply too discreet to make much of a rustic impression. The drone is given equal prominence in Fischer's performance which results in a very rough sound like a hurdy-gurdy (which is what I assume Haydn was going for). In the last movement Sacher doesn't observe the Allegro's repeat which means the Adagio section starts after less than a minute and half, making it much less startling, I think. And then, instead of using the string trio Haydn asks for, he employs his entire string section, playing down and ignoring the originality of Haydn's creation.

So, this is not a performance of 67 I'd recommend.

Sarge

Probably right. I left a note in the listening thread about this, about how I prefer Vilmos Tatrai's recording -- and when I compared the two a few years back I preferred Tatrai to Fischer. But I don't know how I'd feel now about Fischer,

[Sergeant Rock]

Probably right. I left a note in the listening thread about this, about how I prefer Vilmos Tatrai's recording

I saw your post. Although there are some Tatrai conducted symphonies on Amazon DE, that CD isn't listed. I'll keep searching.

I do appreciate the link to Sacher. It was interesting hearing and comparing it to my 67s, the few I own (Drahos and Fischer). Is there a Goodman or Solomons 67?

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Hah!  I listened to it too and didn't find anything there to recommend either.

Do you have Fischer?

Sarge

[Brian]

Mandryka, I downloaded that entire Symphonyshare Haydn #80 package just now.

Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

[Sergeant Rock]

Mandryka, I downloaded that entire Symphonyshare Haydn #80 package just now.

Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

I only own one 37 on CD--an indication that it's not very popular? I know what I'll be listening to next 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Is there a Goodman or Solomons 67?

No. The only PI 67 is Hogwood, and it is super. Just the parts that you were bewailing in the recording you listened to are up front in Hogwood, as well as those outstanding natural horns.

I will offer my own 2 cents and say that I think the violin duet in the trio is actually going for bagpipes, or the French version, the musette. They were all the rage for a time, and you know, The Prince was a huge fan of French stuff. You may well be right, I don't really know, it just sounded to me.

[Sergeant Rock]

No. The only PI 67 is Hogwood, and it is super.

Damn...and I thought I had all the Hogwood I needed. I hope the volume with 67 is available...and cheap!

I will offer my own 2 cents and say that I think the violin duet in the trio is actually going for bagpipes, or the French version, the musette.

Oh yeah, you could be right. I was guessing hurdy-gurdy...based on how Fischer's Trio sounded to me. But bagpipes are similarly rustic and "droney"  and make a good fit. I'll listen for it the next time I play 67. And you know, bagpipes are my favorite instrument after the horn 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Damn...and I thought I had all the Hogwood I needed. I hope the volume with 67 is available...and cheap!

Oh yeah, you could be right. I was guessing hurdy-gurdy...based on how Fischer's Trio sounded to me. But bagpipes are similarly rustic and "droney"  and make a good fit. I'll listen for it the next time I play 67. And you know, bagpipes are my favorite instrument after the horn 

Sarge

It's volume 9. I thought you had bought that new boxful. Damn the luck, eh!

Yes, I like them too. When I was doing a lot of Vivaldi research I discovered the musette  and was surprised to learn how widespread the bagpipe family was back then. I didn't even know there was a 'bagpipe family'! 

[Sergeant Rock]

It's volume 9. I thought you had bought that new boxful. Damn the luck, eh!

I began collecting Hogwood long before the "complete" box was available, primarily to acquire recordings of Symphonies I didn't have or that I wanted PI performances of. I have vol. 2, 3, 4 and 8. 9 is available new but priced almost as much as the box--I'll have to think about it. I really like Fischer so Hogwood's 67 isn't a "must have" for me.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

I began collecting Hogwood long before the "complete" box was available, primarily to acquire recordings of Symphonies I didn't have or that I wanted PI performances of. I have vol. 2, 3, 4 and 8. 9 is available new but priced almost as much as the box--I'll have to think about it. I really like Fischer so Hogwood's 67 isn't a "must have" for me.

Sarge

Understand. When I was shopping those (early on also), I got lucky a few times and got great buys (usually on eBay). Like Vol 1-6, new and nearly new, for $100!  With high dollar items I learned to develop patience or not get it at all. That's a lot easier to do when you already have a set that you really like. If I wasn't such a dedicated PIon, I would be very happy with the Fischer too (I have 2 copies of it!), in fact have rec'd it to umpteen people.

[Gurn Blanston]

This is why I feel no compulsion to to buy the Dennis Russell Davies set, although it sounds like a good one, too.

Well, I'm not going to buy it in order to review it because I don't need it, but everything I have read indicates that it has many strong points, but enough weak points in areas that I consider critical to make me stay away. I'm not going to spend $25 just for the sake of spending $25 if I don't want the product. I imagine that the other abstainers are pretty much thinking that way too. Hell, Fischer is excellent, why replace it? 

[Sergeant Rock]

Yesterday I did something I said I wasn't interested in doing: a Haydn marathon. It wasn't planned, just sorta happened. And it was glorious 

37 Fischer
44 Weil
51 Weil
52 Weil
55 Fischer
56 Fischer
67 Sacher
67 Fischer
68 Harnoncourt
69 Fischer
70 Goodman
71 Goodman


Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Yesterday I did something I said I wasn't interested in doing: a Haydn marathon. It wasn't planned, just sorta happened. And it was glorious 

37 Fischer
44 Weil
51 Weil
52 Weil
55 Fischer
56 Fischer
67 Sacher
67 Fischer
68 Harnoncourt
69 Fischer
70 Goodman
71 Goodman


Sarge

Man, that's a great lineup! I wish I had done that...

 

[Sergeant Rock]

Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

Was my criticism justified? I guess even if it wasn't I'm entitled to have a least favorite or two.

I haven't heard DRD but Fischer's 37 (wildly misnumbered) is anything but listless. The first movement takes off at a true presto clip with great timpani whacks and trumpet accents that remind me of the way Fey conducts and balances Haydn's fast movements. The work as a whole is interesting (to me) as the first of the "pomp and circumstance" symphonies, a hint, a preview of what we'll get with the "Maria Theresia" and "Laudon." The themes are engaging and I like the way the Minuet, coming first, segues so smoothly into the Andante, which Fischer takes rather quickly but with expressive phrasing. The Trio, played with solo instruments instead of the full string compliment (just like 67), is a delight. (Is that Haydn's doing or Fischer's?) Sure, it's a slight symphony, a very early effort and not profound, but at 13 minutes it doesn't overstay its welcome.

In other words, I like it quite a bit more than you do. Whether the conductors make the difference or whether it's just a matter of taste here we won't know until we each hear both performances.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Man, that's a great lineup! I wish I had done that...

 

It was a reminder of how great those relatively obscure symphonies numbered between 50 and 80 are. So many gems there.

Sarge