Haydn's Haus

[Sergeant Rock]

I think that's one of the huge attractions for me in Haydn's works; you never know what's going to happen next.

To quote Karl, Aye.

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

Well, Haydn Hausers, it was fun while it lasted.     Over two pages of posting today in the Havergal Brian thread.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, Haydn Hausers, it was fun while it lasted.     Over two pages of posting today in the Havergal Brian thread.   

Yes, even I posted there!  With a lead of over 1900 posts, it would take more than a brisk day to close the gap!    

Are you still working on that set from yesterday?  It seemed you had one disk to listen over again, IIRC...

[Brahmsian]

Yes, even I posted there!  With a lead of over 1900 posts, it would take more than a brisk day to close the gap!    

Are you still working on that set from yesterday?  It seemed you had one disk to listen over again, IIRC...

It is true, but I am currently neck deep in ballet music!    I do promise to revisit/relisten to those 3 symphonies again (S#9, 33 and 36) 

[Gurn Blanston]

It is true, but I am currently neck deep in ballet music!    I do promise to revisit/relisten to those 3 symphonies again (S#9, 33 and 36) 

Ah, ballet music. Hard not to like that!  I usually put that off as long as I can because it is like eating popcorn for me.

All three of those have points of interest, they will reward you, they promise.   

[Brahmsian]

Ah, ballet music. Hard not to like that!  I usually put that off as long as I can because it is like eating popcorn for me.

A great analogy.    I've been gorging on buttered popcorn and sugar plums a lot this month. 

[Gurn Blanston]

A great analogy.    I've been gorging on buttered popcorn and sugar plums a lot this month. 

Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know. Just gotta avoid those Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake disks while digging through the Tchaikovsky section. 

[Brahmsian]

Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know. Just gotta avoid those Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake disks while digging through the Tchaikovsky section. 

I've been gorging on all three, Gurn.

Speaking of MacKerras, I'll be spinning Beethoven's The Creatures of Prometheus, a fantastic work! 

[Gurn Blanston]

I've been gorging on all three, Gurn.

Speaking of MacKerras, I'll be spinning Beethoven's The Creatures of Prometheus, a fantastic work! 

Indeed it is, Ray. And Mac's version of it is the best one I have, it is very satisfactory. Well, that's almost ballet, so you are weaning yourself away gradually. Always the best way in these cases.

[Roberto]

Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know.

Last Christmas I've listened to the Wozzeck. 

[Roberto]

The tempos are perfect in each movement and, unlike Hogwood, he includes the trumpets and timps.

I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

[Karl Henning]

I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

Well, but since there are many solo passages, at least one argument for that historical fidelity is, balance.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

Well, there are two or three ways to look at what you are saying, Roberto. First, as Karl notes, there is the historical fidelity issue. It is one of those things that sounds 'off' to our ears because we are used to hearing much more texture, even in music that didn't originally have it.

But I don't think that is what you are getting at, nor is Sarge. The trumpets & timpani in most of these earlier symphonies were almost never part of the original for the simple reason that Haydn didn't have any of those instruments to play with. On special occasions the Prince would bring in some guys from the cathedral (I believe in Pressburg), or like when the Empress came to visit he imported some from Vienna. In most cases where there are parts added, they were done by someone else as needed. Often they were fairly well done too, although the further removed in time, the less authentic they sound. Haydn himself did go back and add in some himself (some are in his handwriting, or the handwriting of known associates).

So having or not having the parts included in a performance requires some judgments to be made. On all of the festive C major works, I am very sure that he would have wanted them. On some others, maybe not.   

[kishnevi]

Well, but since there are many solo passages, at least one argument for that historical fidelity is, balance.

Personally,  I always thought that the best argument for historical fidelity was historical fidelity....

But when it comes to the presence of trumps and timps*   in the symphonies,  historical fidelity is never clear cut.   Which is to be expected, since it usually is never clear cut when you get down to details...



*trumps and timps....perhaps we could come up with a card game of that name?

[Karl Henning]

That's why I pointed to balance!

[Gurn Blanston]

Personally,  I always thought that the best argument for historical fidelity was historical fidelity....

But when it comes to the presence of trumps and timps*   in the symphonies,  historical fidelity is never clear cut.   Which is to be expected, since it usually is never clear cut when you get down to details...

Which seems like a difficult concept for a lot of people to deal with. Not just modernistas who were brought up with scores written in stone, but also HIPpies who want to turn around and write their interpretations in stone too. Then, more than now probably, every performance was unique for oh-so-many reasons  (shit, the cook is sick. Now who will play second oboe?). Flexibility is the name of the game!

That's why I pointed to balance!

And rightly so. For example, when Haydn had a flute part that he wanted, he didn't just go hire a flutist, he gave the second oboe a long rest and had him play the flute instead. That way balance was preserved (see Hob 24 for example). Balance is a defining feature of classicism, both sonically and structurally.

[Karl Henning]

Color me modernista, but I don't think scores are etched in stone . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Color me modernista, but I don't think scores are etched in stone . . . .

No, I'm talking about people brought up with the post-Romantic notion that the composer's original notes and dynamics etc. are as handed down to Moses and not to be messed with. pre-1800 at least, if you didn't have a violone that day and you stuck a bassoon and cembalo in its place, no one thought twice about it. Now it would cause a minor furor!

[Karl Henning]

Check . . . and like any entrenched notion, it's not even at this stage completely disentrenched.

[Gurn Blanston]

Check . . . and like any entrenched notion, it's not even at this stage completely disentrenched.

No, there are factions....