Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for the input, Neal. I haven't heard Andsnes, but I like what I have heard from him, he can sell it if anyone can. As you say though, not that it needs that, it can take it. After reading your post I thought it might be a good idea to check my own stock. I have 3 versions on harpsichord, Koopman, Schornsheim & Demeyere (with Kuijken) and one on fortepiano (Brautigam). I like the way Brautigam restrains himself, something he doesn't always do! This is good, it can take it.  

In comparing the concerto with a solo sonata (Hob 16:45 in Eb) composed the same year (1766), I hear an entirely different approach to both the keyboard part and in the orchestral side, to Symphony #28 which is also contemporary. Of the three, the concerto is surprisingly the most modern sounding, despite the frequent accusations of his keyboard concertos sounding old fashioned.

Actually, the more I listen to it, the better I like it. I have a modern version with Ax that I need to dig out. Hmmm.....

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks for the input, Neal. I haven't heard Andsnes, but I like what I have heard from him, he can sell it if anyone can. As you say though, not that it needs that, it can take it. After reading your post I thought it might be a good idea to check my own stock. I have 3 versions on harpsichord, Koopman, Schornsheim & Demeyere (with Kuijken) and one on fortepiano (Brautigam). I like the way Brautigam restrains himself, something he doesn't always do! This is good, it can take it.  

In comparing the concerto with a solo sonata (Hob 16:45 in Eb) composed the same year (1766), I hear an entirely different approach to both the keyboard part and in the orchestral side, to Symphony #28 which is also contemporary. Of the three, the concerto is surprisingly the most modern sounding, despite the frequent accusations of his keyboard concertos sounding old fashioned.

Actually, the more I listen to it, the better I like it. I have a modern version with Ax that I need to dig out. Hmmm.....

You might be interested: The timing of the movements for Andsnes is 7.43, 6.35, 3.39. Pletnev is 11.27, 9.35, 4.34. So 17 min vs 25 min!! That's significant! I like Ax's way with Haydn by the way (but not so much the rest). The Andsnes remind me a lot of his String Quartets in a lot of ways - very vibrant and not heavy at all. The Sonata seems more simplistic on its own, but sheer technique was never what these pieces were about. Still, the concerto is remarkably layered for all that it is not really all that demanding on the pianist. The symphony doesn't sound as mature to me. It's interesting to see the different works from different ouvres in a way I had never looked at them. I think the concerto the most appealing by a long shot.

I think the 'old-fashioned' claim is out of date (). Sure, others may have been more adventurous or demanding in expanding the form, but that should not reduce the value of Haydn's work. I generally love the concerto, and from that time, there are only a few I truly love. Haydn (#4) is one of them. But having said that, in the fast third movement with Andsnes, he convinces you with unassailable technique, style and grace. So perhaps it is also a question of interpretation (something you were perhaps not interested in getting too bogged down in, but I think it is factor nonetheless).

[Gurn Blanston]

You might be interested: The timing of the movements for Andsnes is 7.43, 6.35, 3.39. Pletnev is 11.27, 9.35, 4.34. So 17 min vs 25 min!! That's significant! I like Ax's way with Haydn by the way (but not so much the rest). The Andsnes remind me a lot of his String Quartets in a lot of ways - very vibrant and not heavy at all. The Sonata seems more simplistic on its own, but sheer technique was never what these pieces were about. Still, the concerto is remarkably layered for all that it is not really all that demanding on the pianist. The symphony doesn't sound as mature to me. It's interesting to see the different works from different oeuvres in a way I had never looked at them. I think the concerto the most appealing by a long shot.

Wow! I wonder if Celi was conducting!   Actually, I really wonder if all repeats were being taken, or if it is just tempo. Those are significant numbers.  The sonata is actually very simplistic, I believe he was constructing it as a model for future works. It is in a small group called 'the workshop sonatas', and it sounds like it. There is a clear linear progression in his keyboard works around that time. This one is on the dividing line. My own take on the symphony is that it is an experimental work. I would bet that when it was heard by his contemporaries they thought immediately 'Henning!'. Even discounting the German critics who hated it beyond reason, I suspect it still was thought quite odd. I haven't decided on it yet, despite listening to it 10 times last week in preparation  for that essay.

I think the 'old-fashioned' claim is out of date (). Sure, others may have been more adventurous or demanding in expanding the form, but that should not reduce the value of Haydn's work. I generally love the concerto, and from that time, there are only a few I truly love. Haydn (#4) is one of them. But having said that, in the fast third movement with Andsnes, he convinces you with unassailable technique, style and grace. So perhaps it is also a question of interpretation (something you were perhaps not interested in getting too bogged down in, but I think it is factor nonetheless).

Yes, the music critics who are all dead now were quite unable to apply context (time and purpose being the main offenders usually) to a work when comparing it with other works. And the extrapolations the drew from anomalies they heard led them to some pretty strange conclusions. I agree, that claim is outdated, but it still shows up from time to time. Too bad, really, because it drives people off like nothing else!   

[mc ukrneal]

Wow! I wonder if Celi was conducting!   Actually, I really wonder if all repeats were being taken, or if it is just tempo. Those are significant numbers. 

I was just doing a little digging and in a review of Hamelin, I see that both Andsnes and Hamelin had their own cadenzas. Andsnes are apparently shorter. Gramophone says the Hamelin adds 8 minutes in cadenzas alone to the whole disc. So perhaps that and the faster tempo explain it. There was a quote you might find interesting as well...

...No 4 in G, audibly a later, harmonically richer work and one which was performed by the blind pianist Maria Theresia von Paradis (also the recipient of Mozart's K456) in Paris in 1784...Comparison is often made (not in Haydn's favour) with the piano concertos of Mozart; and while it's true that they don't display the melodic generosity or orchestral richness of Mozart's miraculous string of Vienna piano concertos of the 1780s, Haydn could not have heard those works before writing even the latest of his three, the D major. That's not to say, however, that Haydn's keyboard concertos are primitive or suffer from paucity of imagination, either thematically or orchestrally. Enjoy these works on their own terms and they're every bit as rewarding in their own way...

[kishnevi]

Listening to 2 different recordings of the same works within a few days of each other can have a definite impact on the auditory results.

I am finding, for instance,  that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in  a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

[Karl Henning]

I am finding, for instance,  that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in  a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

I dunno, I might side with the Hobbit, there . . . just in principle, it recalls to me how well I like Ozawa's elegant touch with the Prokofiev Classical Symphony, and how tiresome I've found it when everyone seems keen to treat it as a circus bee . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

Listening to 2 different recordings of the same works within a few days of each other can have a definite impact on the auditory results.

I am finding, for instance,  that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in  a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

I have trouble believing there is a more energetic conductor of Haydn than the manic Hobbit 

So I listened to clips of Ansermet's Haydn at JPC and compared Bear and Hen directly to Fey (short clips can't offer definitive proof, I know). At least in these two symphonies, Fey is consistently faster in most movements and seems to have his metronome set to the same speed as Ansermet's in the first movement of the Bear and the slow movement of the Hen. But maybe you have a different definition of livelier and energetic? Or maybe, since you listened within a few days rather than a few minutes or seconds, your aural memory is playing a trick on you? Not that it matters. The blind comparisons prove we all hear and describe what we hear very differently.

Thank you for bringing this up. As I said elsewhere, I hadn't known Ansermet's Paris symphonies even existed until I saw your purchase. I liked what I heard--and I really wasn't expecting what I heard! Ansermet made a very favorable impression on me. Oh lord...I do not need another Paris set.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks to Neal for the interesting input on the Concerto #3 for Keyboard. It gave me something to ponder while I was writing this, my latest essay.

Keyboard Concerto #3 and friends

I hope you will read it and find something interesting to listen to.

Thanks,
Gurn

[kishnevi]

I have trouble believing there is a more energetic conductor of Haydn than the manic Hobbit 

So I listened to clips of Ansermet's Haydn at JPC and compared Bear and Hen directly to Fey (short clips can't offer definitive proof, I know). At least in these two symphonies, Fey is consistently faster in most movements and seems to have his metronome set to the same speed as Ansermet's in the first movement of the Bear and the slow movement of the Hen. But maybe you have a different definition of livelier and energetic? Or maybe, since you listened within a few days rather than a few minutes or seconds, your aural memory is playing a trick on you? Not that it matters. The blind comparisons prove we all hear and describe what we hear very differently.

Thank you for bringing this up. As I said elsewhere, I hadn't known Ansermet's Paris symphonies even existed until I saw your purchase. I liked what I heard--and I really wasn't expecting what I heard! Ansermet made a very favorable impression on me. Oh lord...I do not need another Paris set.

Sarge

I have found that the Hobbit has impressed me less than he has impressed most other GMG'ers, although I can't pick a precise reason for it.  And yes, it is possible that aural memory was simply playing tricks on me.  Or perhaps simply that I hadn't heard these symphonies for a bit.   But I did remember Ansermet being more livelier--or perhaps, better phrased, he found more things under the surface, whereas Fey's account seemed more superficial and a trifle (just a trifle) more elegant.  The Bear was less bumptious with Fey.   But in Ansermet's reading I could hear a sort of pre-echo of Beethoven's Fourth and Seventh,  which I didn't hear in Fey.

I played only the first CD last night;  tonight I'll play the second CD of the pair, and perhaps my impression will improve.

ETA--it occurs to me that perhaps my poor reception of Fey last night was due to playing it in too close proximity to Karajan's Eroica.   The pre-echoes may have simply not stood out so much in comparison to the "real" Beethoven.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I dunno, I might side with the Hobbit, there . . . just in principle, it recalls to me how well I like Ozawa's elegant touch with the Prokofiev Classical Symphony, and how tiresome I've found it when everyone seems keen to treat it as a circus bee . . . .

Well, I'm not sure I'd say the Classical suffers as much as that! I've heard it aplenty on my local classical FM station (it's a hot ticket item...no surprise) and I've found it to be quite well done.

In fact, Prokofiev with too much velvet turns me off. So in the battle of the hypotheticals I'd probably not be too keen on Ozawa.

[kishnevi]

I played only the first CD last night;  tonight I'll play the second CD of the pair, and perhaps my impression will improve.

And having listened to that second CD (numbers 85-87)--a somewhat better impression,  but not enough.  I can't point to anything he brings to the table that other conductors don't.   But perhaps the fact that these recordings were done relatively early in his Haydn project is of relevance.

I'll leave Fey in abeyance for now.  I'm only up to CD 15 of the DRD/Stuttgart cycle and beyond that the whole of the Fischer/AustroHungarian is calling my name; with them and the Goodman series and the Hogwood box it's not as if I'm exactly lacking in Haydn (not to mention Pinnock's Strum and Drang box,  a segment of the Dorati cycle, Solti's and Minkowski's Londons, and various smaller chunks by various conductors)

[Brian]

Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive essay. The opener is wonderful: "Haydn still tends to be regarded as a genial sidekick of Mozart, a Dr Watson to Mozart's Sherlock Holmes."

[kishnevi]

Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive essay. The opener is wonderful: "Haydn still tends to be regarded as a genial sidekick of Mozart, a Dr Watson to Mozart's Sherlock Holmes."

Whereas in fact he was Mycroft to Mozart's Sherlock.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I'm not sure I'd say the Classical suffers as much as that! I've heard it aplenty on my local classical FM station (it's a hot ticket item...no surprise) and I've found it to be quite well done.

But, if your local cl. FM stn is anything like our local cl. FM stn, they play the one version of the piece they've fixed on.  And they've found one which doesn't make the piece sound out of breath 

In fact, Prokofiev with too much velvet turns me off. So in the battle of the hypotheticals I'd probably not be too keen on Ozawa.

Give it a try.  His Classical is energetic;  the energy is efficient, is all.

[Sergeant Rock]

Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive essay.

Thanks for the link, Brian. Nice to see Vol.21 honored as Recording of the Month. It's one of my favorites of the Hobbit's cycle and contains, I think, the best performances of any of the Londons he's recorded so far (96, 98, 101 and 103 are still to come).

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks for the link, Brian. Nice to see Vol.21 honored as Recording of the Month. It's one of my favorites of the Hobbit's cycle and contains, I think, the best performances of any of the Londons he's recorded so far (96, 98, 101 and 103 are still to come).

Sarge

I can't wait to hear what the Hobbit does with No.98's Adagio.

[Gurn Blanston]

While I know that certain genres are less popular than others, no matter the composer, I just now published a brief essay on a mass and an opera. I felt no sense of obligation towards having to 'touch all the bases', these are both works I quite enjoy, and I hope you will too. Please have a look, if you are so inclined.


Missa Cellensis & La Cantarina

Thanks!

[mc ukrneal]

While I know that certain genres are less popular than others, no matter the composer, I just now published a brief essay on a mass and an opera. I felt no sense of obligation towards having to 'touch all the bases', these are both works I quite enjoy, and I hope you will too. Please have a look, if you are so inclined.


Missa Cellensis & La Cantarina

Thanks!

I have nine of his operas, but not that one. But I think it's going to have to wait. Still, on the wishlist it goes.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have nine of his operas, but not that one. But I think it's going to have to wait. Still, on the wishlist it goes.

That's the only recording I know of it. Fortunately it is a very nice performance. It is still generally available for a reasonable price, so the wishlist serves you well here (for a while, at least).   

[Gurn Blanston]

I thank those several who read the previous essay, I know masses and operas aren't everyone's cuppa...  0:)  I am rather pleased to discover rather later in my life that these genres have grown to fall more softly on my ear than in years past.

1767, as it turns out, was a moderately busy year for Haydn. We'll get to the music shortly, but I thought you might like to read a short bit about the context. Here it is, if you please.

---1767---

Thanks for your interest.