Haydn's Haus

[Ken B]

" a non-Bachian"
My eyes! My eyes!   

I don't know any Austrian choral music of that period except Hummel and the two obvious ones. Hummel is a bit late for that though. I really like all the Bach offspring but especially CPE. I don,t suppose Cherubini counts. 

[mc ukrneal]

I don't think imprinting with modern instruments will help much later on if one wants to try PI, since then you have to 'unlearn' the sound. This is the main complaint I see among all the anti-PI's, so it is best to sidestep it altogether.    

An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments.  And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both.

[Ken B]

An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments.  And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both.

For me it depends partly on era.
I can listen to classicla MI just fine. I really like a lot of Mozart piano concertos. With Baroque it's almost impossible except for piano. With renaissance I won't even give non specialists a chance.

[Gurn Blanston]

An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments.  And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both.

No, I mean the people who complain about the sound of PI, not everyone. It seems to be their main complaint, and it always seems to stem from comparisons with modern instruments which are stuck in their heads. I'm not throwing darts there, just collating past experiences.

Hurwitz wrote a review of a Haydn PI performance, I can probably find it again if I try. In any case, it relied a lot of the horns, and he said he liked the disk pretty much, except it would have just sounded so much better with modern horns. Really? If you parse that statement it pretty much sums things up.   

[Gurn Blanston]

For me it depends partly on era.
I can listen to classicla MI just fine. I really like a lot of Mozart piano concertos. With Baroque it's almost impossible except for piano. With renaissance I won't even give non specialists a chance.

I am among those who can't deal with modern piano in anything older than the death of Schubert. I don't have any expectation that others would agree with me, but I listen by myself, mainly, so it doesn't matter!   

[Ken B]

I am among those who can't deal with modern piano in anything older than the death of Schubert. I don't have any expectation that others would agree with me, but I listen by myself, mainly, so it doesn't matter!   

Alas Brendel never played Schubert on a fortepiano. Brautigam transformed my view of Haydn. Had never thought much of the piano music before that. Always loved the quartets and trios.

[Pat B]

I can probably find it again if I try.

Please don't. I think the best thing to do is just ignore him. Aside from his obnoxious rants against PI, his website has some (unattributed) reviews that are suspiciously similar to Gramophone's or BBC Music's. Page hits mean ad money, and I discourage everyone from performing that service for him.

On a more positive note, y'all have nearly talked me into the Tafelmusik set. I have Kuijken's Paris symphonies, and even without a reference I tend to agree that they're missing something. I generally like Tafelmusik, so... hold on a second... did you hear that clicking sound?

[Ken B]

Please don't. I think the best thing to do is just ignore him. Aside from his obnoxious rants against PI, his website has some (unattributed) reviews that are suspiciously similar to Gramophone's or BBC Music's. Page hits mean ad money, and I discourage everyone from performing that service for him.

On a more positive note, y'all have nearly talked me into the Tafelmusik set. I have Kuijken's Paris symphonies, and even without a reference I tend to agree that they're missing something. I generally like Tafelmusik, so... hold on a second... did you hear that clicking sound?

Buying Canadian is never a mistake.

OK, there's Celine Dion.
OK, there's Justine Bieber.
OK, there's Rob Ford.
But ...

The Aradia Ensemble is the other HIP orchestra in Toronto. They did a bunch of the Haydn on Naxos.

[Gurn Blanston]

Buying Canadian is never a mistake.

OK, there's Celine Dion.
OK, there's Justine Bieber.
OK, there's Rob Ford.
But ...

The Aradia Ensemble is the other HIP orchestra in Toronto. They did a bunch of the Haydn on Naxos.

And one of my frequent suggested performances:

[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

The Arion Baroque Orchestra from Montreal.     In my latest symphony essay I rec this and Weil for #41, both with and without trumpets & timpani.  2 Canadian bands, go figure!  0:)

[Sergeant Rock]

All the more reason to love them! He has no business reviewing period instrument recordings; he hates them on the face of it. He should stay with Rachmaninov... 

That's not true, Gurn. Hurwitz does not hate period recordings: he hates what some conductors do with a period band in some recordings. He's enthusiastic when promoting PI CDs he likes. For example:

Beck symphonies on CPO. He wrote:

"The performances by La Stagione Franfurt, on period instruments, have all of the necessary bite and drama that the music requires. I still balk at the notion that period harpsichordists poked at those repeated-note bass lines in soft passages the way that modern players do, but otherwise Michael Schneider and his band seem well inside the idiom, and music itself is wonderful."

On Weil's Paris set:

"No sooner does Sony put all of Tafelmusik's Haydn in a box than the orchestra releases the Paris symphonies on its own label. I reviewed the box for "Insider" and gave the collection a "9″ based primarily on the quality of the earlier symphonies (plus a wonderful version of No. 88). These performances are also very good, but they were recorded before the outstanding period-instrument recordings of Harnoncourt[...]There's nothing really wrong here. In fact, there's a lot to enjoy; it's just that on period instruments, you can do better still."

He gave 10/10 to Harnoncourt's Paris set:

"I'm in Haydn heaven. This is the most remarkable set of "Paris" Symphonies since Bernstein's, and without question the new reference by which all others will be judged[...]the playing of the Concentus Musicus Wien is extraordinary."

On Pinnock's Nelson Mass:

"10/10 This must be one of the best recordings of classical period repertoire that Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert ever made. In the Nelson Mass, those grim trumpets in the opening Kyrie and Benedictus cut through the gaunt texture of strings and organ with a real sense of menace, but without crudeness. The period strings have enough body to balance the voices..."

Jacob's Haydn 91 & 92:

"10/10 René Jacobs turned in a sensational recording of Haydn's The Seasons for Harmonia Mundi last year, and now he's back with what I hope will mark the beginning of many forays into this composer's inexhaustibly entertaining output. I loved this disc[...]Jacobs and his crew go absolutely crazy in the "Oxford" Symphony, particularly its finale, taken faster than even the excellent Freiburgers can comfortably play it, and if some of the rhythmic definition and textural clarity fall by the wayside, well, who cares? Haydn's wig would have hit the floor if he could have heard it, that's for sure. This stunningly recorded disc is probably the closest you'll ever get to a front-row balcony seat in the Hanover Square Rooms more than two centuries ago. There's just got to be more where this came from. Please?"

I could go on, and on, but you get the point. Hurwitz loves some PI recordings, dislikes others. Don't we all?

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

That's not true, Gurn. Hurwitz does not hate period recordings: he hates what some conductors do with a period band in some recordings. He's enthusiastic when promoting PI CDs he likes. For example:

---snip---

I could go on, and on, but you get the point. Hurwitz loves some PI recordings, dislikes others. Don't we all?

Sarge

It's just that his likes and dislikes are so predictable and so expansively stated, as though there is no middle ground, or that someone couldn't possibly enjoy it if he didn't. The sound or natural horns is like that. So is the sound that keyboard instruments make. It is inherent to the early fortepiano that the jacks make a noise. If you can't handle it, then you don't listen to it.

I just don't trust what he writes. It is easy to like the works that sound the most like modern instruments and say you like period instruments because you like those. It is far different to accept period instruments warts and all since that is what they actually sounded like.

[Ken B]

And one of my frequent suggested performances:

[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

The Arion Baroque Orchestra from Montreal.     In my latest symphony essay I rec this and Weil for #41, both with and without trumpets & timpani.  2 Canadian bands, go figure!  0:)

World domination is the plan. Did you see the olympics? First we take curling, then Berlin as another Canuck might say. 

[Sergeant Rock]

It is easy to like the works that sound the most like modern instruments and say you like period instruments because you like those.

You think the CMW, Tafelmusik, the English Concert and the Freiburger Barock sound like modern instruments? 

"It is far different to accept period instruments warts and all since that is what they actually sounded like. "

Except we don't actually know what they sounded like. But I'll bite: if the orchestras Hurwitz praises don't sound like period bands, which do?

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

For the early symphonies I prefer Goodman on period instruments, but Sarge strongly dislikes them.

Not true...although I understand how that misconception came about. I am very critical of, not only Goodman's use of the harpsichord, but also the way he uses it in many of his recordings. Nonetheless I have a sizeable collecton of Goodman's Haydn (45 symphonies plus the horn concerto) because I love the sound of the Hanover Band (except for his sometimes annoyingly loud keyboard continuo) and generally approve of Goodman's interpretations.

Sarge

[Mandryka]

I was in radio late 70s. I did a program each week "Bach as Written". The station library had little of that, so I used my own mostly.
I'm unsure about recommending HIP Mozart concertos to newcomers. I grew up on Anda etc. On the other hand I warn people off early music from before Pro Cantione Antiqua, the first great renaissance vocal group. I recommend in fact avoiding any choir at all in that except professional em groups. So I'm not consistent.

I wonder what you think of Studio der Frühen Musik, or Deller's first recording of Couperin's Leçons with Harry Gabb and Desmond Dupré.

[Ken B]

I wonder what you think of Studio der Frühen Musik, or Deller's first recording of Couperin's Leçons with Harry Gabb and Desmond Dupré.

Never heard the Deller. Not sure HM was even available in Canada then. I cannot recall particular SFM stuff, but it rings troubador bells (?). I liked it if its what I am thinking of. I did have and play old Wenziger and Schola Cantorum Basiliensis. A random assortment, whatever I found and could afford.
The station had some Deller on Vanguard. I suspect it sounds pretty raw these days.

[Mandryka]

Never heard the Deller. Not sure HM was even available in Canada then. I cannot recall particular SFM stuff, but it rings troubador bells (?). I liked it if its what I am thinking of. I did have and play old Wenziger and Schola Cantorum Basiliensis. A random assortment, whatever I found and could afford.
The station had some Deller on Vanguard. I suspect it sounds pretty raw these days.

The early Deller recordings I very much like, but how you respond to a voice is so personal I suppose. The later recordings, like the second Leçons de Ténèbres with Chapuis, I'm less keen on. The Studio der Frühen Musik Machault is well worth having IMO, as is the Du Fay and Carmina Burana. Though as with all voices, Andrea von Ramm has supporters and detractors.

[DavidW]

I just want to say that Haydn's Symphonies #6-8 are magnificent.  That is all. 0:)

[calyptorhynchus]

Well, my comments on the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra's set seem to have started off a bit of the thread.

Don't worry, I don't hate, they're perfectly competent and in places delightful, just overall they don't grab me. As well as all the Naxos symphonies I have ten or so odd disks, some on PI, mainly middle symphonies, so I do have some alternatives.

[Ken B]

I just want to say that Haydn's Symphonies #6-8 are magnificent.  That is all. 0:)

They are but not late at night. Only morning, noon, and evening.