Haydn's Haus

[torut]

No doubt; Rosen is writing for more educated people than myself.   However, it is important to understand that not everyone agrees with him. Are those two things he mentions also the two defining properties for Classic Style? They would seem to be by his personal interpretation of it, but clearly not everyone is in agreement. And in fact, the real question is more essential than this; is there such a thing as Classic Style, and does it differ in any substantial way from what preceded it and what followed it? Is Classic style primarily homophonic music written by the rules of the tonal system? And if so, then why is Haydn Classical and Tchaikovsky Romantic? They both wrote music that was primarily homophonic and which conformed to the rules of the tonal system. If you are me, then you look at this as a secondary issue because the history of the music is more interesting than the structure. I suppose the fact that I find a lot more literature devoted to structure than to history is the root of my occasional rant.

Those are my questions, and the history of the music is interesting to me, but I also want to know the technical explanation for an assertion about influential relationships (or lack of it) between works, composers, or periods. My difficulty is that I am not sure if a statement (such as Rosen's) has an objective evidence or it is just an arbitrary, personal opinion.
To my musically uneducated ears, Op. 20 is "too beautiful" to be treated as less significant.

[Gurn Blanston]

Those are my questions, and the history of the music is interesting to me, but I also want to know the technical explanation for an assertion about influential relationships (or lack of it) between works, composers, or periods. My difficulty is that I am not sure if a statement (such as Rosen's) has an objective evidence or it is just an arbitrary, personal opinion.
To my musically uneducated ears, Op. 20 is "too beautiful" to be treated as less significant.

Objective? That is a very difficult decision to make. Since the very definition of 'classic' or 'romantic' is based on subjective criteria (how much galant is too much?), do you have to wait until all of the retrospectively 'classical' forms had been invented?  Which is to say, rondo and fugue being incorporated into sonata form, for example. And variation form having surpassed its Baroque style roots. If you (a generic you) use these sorts of criteria for your definition, then the entire Classical era stretches from Op 33 to the death of Mozart, that is to say, 10 years. Because music never stops growing and changing. My own personal, subjective definition would include the run-up decades as well as the ones where the style "broke down" into Romanticism. But then, I'm greedy, I like the music on both sides of the 'Golden Decade'.

[torut]

Objective? That is a very difficult decision to make. Since the very definition of 'classic' or 'romantic' is based on subjective criteria (how much galant is too much?), do you have to wait until all of the retrospectively 'classical' forms had been invented?  Which is to say, rondo and fugue being incorporated into sonata form, for example. And variation form having surpassed its Baroque style roots. If you (a generic you) use these sorts of criteria for your definition, then the entire Classical era stretches from Op 33 to the death of Mozart, that is to say, 10 years. Because music never stops growing and changing. My own personal, subjective definition would include the run-up decades as well as the ones where the style "broke down" into Romanticism. But then, I'm greedy, I like the music on both sides of the 'Golden Decade'.

I see, thank you. Labeling often causes problems, especially when it is used for ranking, but on the other hand, it helps revealing certain aspects. Besides the issue of definition of terms, I like this kind of music whatever it is called.

[Gurn Blanston]

If it was any easier to write symphonies and string quartets, women and children would do it!    (That's a joke, dammit!). But baryton trios, now, there is a challenge! So I took a look at the lesser known works of 1772, and show them to you here, if you are interested.

Private and Public chamber music

Check it out, let's discuss.
Thanks,

[torut]

If it was any easier to write symphonies and string quartets, women and children would do it!    (That's a joke, dammit!). But baryton trios, now, there is a challenge! So I took a look at the lesser known works of 1772, and show them to you here, if you are interested.

Private and Public chamber music

Check it out, let's discuss.
Thanks,

Thank you for sharing the nice article, as always. This part is particularly interesting. I want to re-listen to Op. 20 & these baryton trios.

Another advantage of having the trios at hand is the possibility of having a 'proving ground' available for new ideas, and working out how to incorporate them usefully. As an example, the fugal finales of the Opus 20 quartets were anticipated and worked out in Trios # 33, 40, 53, 56, 67, 71, 75, 81 (double fugato!) and fully worked out fugues in 97, 101 & 114.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thank you for sharing the nice article, as always. This part is particularly interesting. I want to re-listen to Op. 20 & these baryton trios.

Thanks. I did relisten to a couple of those trios with that in mind. It isn't so much the specific fugues you would recognize, it is the problem of working them into the flow of the music. I think one of Haydn's strengths was being able to incorporate preexisting forms into sonata form. As he did in Op 20, but he didn't present a fait accompli, the trios are like sketches you see with other composers.

[Gurn Blanston]

I know that many of you don't share my enthusiasm for Haydn's sacred music, but I collected some items on the mass traditions of 18th century Austria which might interest you. If you want to check it out I would love to discuss!

The quid pro quo

Thanks!

[Florestan]

How about this set? Is it any good?



Performers and track list

[Gurn Blanston]

How about this set? Is it any good?



Performers and track list

Yes, and the price can't be beat. You can, if time and money are no object, get better performances of each work. But for a complete set, on all counts they can't be beat.

[Florestan]

You can, if time and money are no object, get better performances of each work.

I already have these



so I was wondering if duplicating them was really worth 20 Euros. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I already have these



so I was wondering if duplicating them was really worth 20 Euros. 

I haven't listened to the cello concertos so I can't comment. No one is going to be better than Rostropovich anyway, unless the lack of the sonority of a Baroque cello is a deal breaker for you.

Guglielmi/Arte Arco are the equal of Pinnock/Standage, with a warmer sound overall (Italian v British, you know)

Holzapfel is as good a set of organ concertos as there is out there.

Violante is a fine player, her fortepiano has a slightly different sound than Benedetti's Steinway...

You don't have (apparently) a horn or trumpet concerto now. You will have, and about time too.

20€ is higher than I would have expected for that box. I wonder if you will have shopped around for it? I know you don't do much online buying which limits your choices. It isn't like it isn't worth 20€, it's just that I would have expected it to go for less.

If it was me, I would get it. It's you, so.... 0:)

[Florestan]

I haven't listened to the cello concertos so I can't comment. No one is going to be better than Rostropovich anyway, unless the lack of the sonority of a Baroque cello is a deal breaker for you.

Guglielmi/Arte Arco are the equal of Pinnock/Standage, with a warmer sound overall (Italian v British, you know)

Holzapfel is as good a set of organ concertos as there is out there.

Violante is a fine player, her fortepiano has a slightly different sound than Benedetti's Steinway...

You don't have (apparently) a horn or trumpet concerto now. You will have, and about time too.

20€ is higher than I would have expected for that box. I wonder if you will have shopped around for it? I know you don't do much online buying which limits your choices. It isn't like it isn't worth 20€, it's just that I would have expected it to go for less.

If it was me, I would get it. It's you, so.... 0:)

Thanks for the comments. It goes straight to my wishlist, I just hope it won't stay there too long. 

[kishnevi]

You might also want to check into the Naxos set
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]
the only reason this set does not qualify for the Gurnotheque is that it's not PI (or at least, chiefly not PI).

while you are at it,  also check into the Naxos Masses box,  which is almost a must have.

[Gurn Blanston]

You might also want to check into the Naxos set
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]
the only reason this set does not qualify for the Gurnotheque is that it's not PI (or at least, chiefly not PI).

while you are at it,  also check into the Naxos Masses box,  which is almost a must have.

You say "only" as though it is "only".   

Big Roge-O on the masses set. If you were going to invest in a masses (only) set, this would be the one.

[Wakefield]

Thanks for the comments. It goes straight to my wishlist, I just hope it won't stay there too long. 

Great decision!

You also get there an old (and excellent) disk of the concerti for lira, actually played on (a modernized) lira organizzata by Hugo Ruf. A true rarity.   

[EigenUser]

Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

[Sergeant Rock]

Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites.

The Cat!




Sarge

[EigenUser]

The Cat!




Sarge

You like this one a lot, too?

Why is it "The Cat"?

[Sergeant Rock]

You like this one a lot, too?

Why is it "The Cat"?

The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 

Sarge

[jochanaan]

The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 

Sarge

Well, most of Haydn's later symphonies are the cat's meow.