Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

They are entirely charming works (no surprise to us Haydnistas here in da Haus).

[Karl Henning]

Post re-purposed 

Picked up this recording after I seen it in the new releases thread (thanks to whoever posted it) :

[asin]B00UCKXWZS[/asin]

[Florestan]

They are entirely charming works (no surprise to us Haydnistas here in da Haus).

Absolutely, and although Gurn considers Hob XVIII:1 as superior to all others, I prefer XVIII:2 over it.

Music like this turns the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church into the Jolly Catholic and Apostolic Church. Haydn switches from serenading ladies in the streets to serenading God in the church. An entirely valid approach, methinks.

[Gurn Blanston]

These days I´ve been listening to Hob XVIII:1, 2, 5, 8 & 10 from the set above.

The musicmaking is of the highest quality, the instrumental balance perfect and the organ is a delight to hear. Highly recommended.

AFAIK, I have all the currently available recordings of these works (PI, of course), and this is the best investment you can make, IMO. It is also in the Big Box...

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, they were written specifically for organ and were intended for church service. 

Yes, but they were also published as 'per organo o gravicembalo'. It was all about the $$ back then, too.    Lots of recordings on harpsichord, then, even though it was only an alternate choice.

[Karl Henning]

In almost every musical epoch, versatility is seen as a sort of marketing virtue.  Then there's always that And just how well do marketing and artistry mesh? matter . . . .

[Wakefield]

Music like this turns the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church into the Jolly Catholic and Apostolic Church. Haydn switches from serenading ladies in the streets to serenading God in the church. An entirely valid approach, methinks.

Well, I have said something like this in the past, but it hasn't had repercussion because, I guess, it looks a sort of impopular idea and a bit biassed, as I'm a Catholic. The point is that I have always suspected/felt that Lutheran/Protestant music looks more like written more from the angle of the Holy Week (and specifically Good Friday) than from the spirit of the other capital Christian celebration: Christmas; while Catholic music is exactly the opposite. That said, Catholic music is generally speaking more joyful and less painful (Haydn and Vivaldi are wonderful examples), as opposed to the Protestant tradition which seems deeply introspective as just pain can get. Of course, all of these are sweeping generalizations.     

[Florestan]

Listening to Hob II: 9 (Huss), 20 & G1 (Linde).

Question for Gurn: do we know, or can we infer, who or what they were composed for? Is this music supposed to be listened to in silence, or was the original audience supposed to be doing something else than concentrated listening?

[Jo498]

Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned. Himself a composer and musician he had no qualms adapting tunes from popular music for church and Lutheran liturgy and service have historically been more lavish than most other protestant denominations (if not quite matching the full splendor of counterreformational Catholicism)

[Gurn Blanston]

Listening to Hob II: 9 (Huss), 20 & G1 (Linde).

Question for Gurn: do we know, or can we infer, who or what they were composed for? Is this music supposed to be listened to in silence, or was the original audience supposed to be doing something else than concentrated listening?

Love that Linde CD!

There are many potential uses for divertimenti of that type. One of the most likely is Tafelmusik, a sure sign you were keeping up with the Joneses was to have your own little orchestra play for your guests while they ate. And so in that case, we would be talking and only partially paying attention to the nice sounds coming from the corner of the room. Or perhaps accompanying a little soirée out on the patio, so to speak.  I highly doubt there was an occasion for listening which would have involved concentrated listening. It just wasn't done.

Between them, you can find the complete set of 3 of those works, 2 in G and 1 in F, all for the same suite of instruments, music which is actually deserving of some good listening effort, even for 1755.

[North Star]

Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned. Himself a composer and musician he had no qualms adapting tunes from popular music for church and Lutheran liturgy and service have historically been more lavish than most other protestant denominations (if not quite matching the full splendor of counterreformational Catholicism)

It would have been hard for Luther to match the Counter-Reformation as he died in 1546, before it really even started (Council of Trent 1545-1563).

[Florestan]

Well, I have said something like this in the past, but it hasn't had repercussion because, I guess, it looks a sort of impopular idea and a bit biassed, as I'm a Catholic.

I am Orthodox, that is, in most truly essential matters barely distinguishable from a Catholic, so I´m with you all the way. 

The point is that I have always suspected/felt that Lutheran/Protestant music looks more like written more from the angle of the Holy Week (and specifically Good Friday) than from the spirit of the other capital Christian celebration: Christmas; while Catholic music is exactly the opposite.

The Protestant outlook can be summed up by only one word: Angst, while the Catholic / Orthodox outlook needs three: joie de vivre.

That said, Catholic music is generally speaking more joyful and less painful (Haydn and Vivaldi are wonderful examples), as opposed to the Protestant tradition which seems deeply introspective as just pain can get.

The most (sublimely) extreme example of Protestant introspection and anguish is Heinrich Schutz.

Of course, all of these are sweeping generalizations. 

There´s no smoke without a fire... 

[Wakefield]

Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned.

There is no doubt about this: Luther was a Catholic monk, totally educated in this tradition. And Protestantism comes from Catholicism, as Christianity in general comes from Judaism. But each has, without a doubt, its particular imprint. At this moment, I don't recall who, but Christianity has been defined as a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle.   

[Florestan]

There are many potential uses for divertimenti of that type. One of the most likely is Tafelmusik, a sure sign you were keeping up with the Joneses was to have your own little orchestra play for your guests while they ate. And so in that case, we would be talking and only partially paying attention to the nice sounds coming from the corner of the room. Or perhaps accompanying a little soirée out on the patio, so to speak.  I highly doubt there was an occasion for listening which would have involved concentrated listening. It just wasn't done.

Just as I thought. 

[Florestan]

There is no doubt about this: Luther was a Catholic monk, totally educated in this tradition. And Protestantism comes from Catholicism, as Christianity in general comes from Judaism. But each has, without a doubt, its particular imprint. At this moment, I don't recall who, but Christianity has been defined as a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle.   

I think it is useful to distinguish Lutheranism (Evangelical Church) from Calvinism (Reformed Church). The former, under the moderating influence of Philipp Melanchton, retained something of the Catholic spirit, while the latter is utterly alien and hostile to it.

[Gurn Blanston]

I am in the process of capturing my thoughts on the antecedents of ambient music for an article.  I had immediately thought of Erik Satie's "furniture music", but I think I will look even farther back to the tafelmusik of the Baroque period.

Sounds like an interesting project. I'd like to keep up with your findings, and toss some stuff your way if you are interested. I run across things en passant which I don't use, but I certainly am intrigued by.

[Karl Henning]

And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

[Wakefield]

And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

I doubted between two responses:

1) I like these smart-asses, or

2)

[Jo498]

I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

[Florestan]

I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

Precisely.

Tellingly enough, Calvin established in Geneva a grim, harsh and joyless theocracy which for 2 centuries produced not a single musician (or any other type of artist, for that matter) that I am aware of.