Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

Very appropriate use of 'tangentially', Karl. As to be expected, of course. 

[Wakefield]

I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

I disagree, but as it's a thing of "emphasis" or "accent" more than other thing, it's very difficult to prove. It's just like a general flavor after some decades dedicated to sacred music, mostly Bach and his forerunners. Obviously, Lutheran tradition also has a lot of music full of pure happiness, as any listener, for instance, of the Christmas Oratorio can easily check.   

[Jo498]

I do not understand: What exactly are you disagreeing with?
That Luther personally loved music and probably composed even some tunes for Lutheran chorales is well documented. That Lutheran liturgical practice and observation of feast days etc. (there are Bach cantatas for Marian feast days and Michaelmas, for instance) is far more "catholic" than any other Protestant tradition (unless one counts High Church Anglican as "protestant") is also easy to check.

[Florestan]

Comparative listening, Hob XVIII:6

First



then



Both are excellent. If you look for physical intimacy and warmth, go for the harpsichord. If what you want is spiritual intimacy and warmth, go for the organ. Either way, you can´t go wrong.

Note to Gurn: I am following your listening suggestions in the chronological order of your essays at haydnseek. If I haven´t already said it, I say it now: this is one of the greatest educational sites I´ve ever encountered, period. If there is a Nobel Prize, or at least a Pullitzer, for websites, I nominate yours as a worthy candidate.

[Florestan]

Gurn, which are the earliest string trios, the ones composed for Fuernberg?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, which are the earliest string trios, the ones composed for Fuernberg?

IIRC, none of them are dated precisely. When I get home I will get you some better info than what I carry in my head. The Hob #'s were pretty close to chronological, I think, but then the ones with a Anghang sort of number (like V:C1) fit in the middle of them. String trios are greatly and unjustly underserved.

[Florestan]

IIRC, none of them are dated precisely. When I get home I will get you some better info than what I carry in my head. The Hob #'s were pretty close to chronological, I think, but then the ones with a Anghang sort of number (like V:C1) fit in the middle of them. String trios are greatly and unjustly underserved.

I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

[Gurn Blanston]

I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

If you have to choose between me and Hurwitz when it comes to Haydn, I can tell you how to go with that, without seeming too pompous.

There are only a couple of them which post-date the Esterházy employment. And that is early Esterházy employment. Most of them are uncertain, but some may be as early as 1753 or 54. He first met Fürnberg ~1754, probably he played music at the Vienna residence, but in any case, he was robbed of all his possessions, and Fürnberg was among those who gave him clothes, and in this case, a roof over his head for 2 or 3 months. That was a likely place for the earliest trios to have originated. Also, he was composing works for his students of keyboard and fiddle, and also works for his strolling minstrels. So (and this is something I am working on offline right now) the glut of over 100 works which begins to show up in the late 1750's was not all written in the late 1750, but throughout the decade. solo keyboard, keyboard trios, string trios. Some of them for the Morzin's, of course, but spread out across nearly 10 years, not all jammed up in 2 or 3 years.

[Gurn Blanston]

Comparative listening, Hob XVIII:6

First



then



Both are excellent. If you look for physical intimacy and warmth, go for the harpsichord. If what you want is spiritual intimacy and warmth, go for the organ. Either way, you can´t go wrong.

Note to Gurn: I am following your listening suggestions in the chronological order of your essays at haydnseek. If I haven´t already said it, I say it now: this is one of the greatest educational sites I´ve ever encountered, period. If there is a Nobel Prize, or at least a Pullitzer, for websites, I nominate yours as a worthy candidate.

Well, thanks, Florestan. That is all I was hoping for when I began it. If it helps anyone else enjoy Haydn as much as I do, then it is a resounding success.

[Florestan]

If you have to choose between me and Hurwitz when it comes to Haydn, I can tell you how to go with that, without seeming too pompous.

Fair enough. 

There are only a couple of them which post-date the Esterházy employment. And that is early Esterházy employment. Most of them are uncertain, but some may be as early as 1753 or 54. He first met Fürnberg ~1754, probably he played music at the Vienna residence, but in any case, he was robbed of all his possessions, and Fürnberg was among those who gave him clothes, and in this case, a roof over his head for 2 or 3 months. That was a likely place for the earliest trios to have originated. Also, he was composing works for his students of keyboard and fiddle, and also works for his strolling minstrels. So (and this is something I am working on offline right now) the glut of over 100 works which begins to show up in the late 1750's was not all written in the late 1750, but throughout the decade. solo keyboard, keyboard trios, string trios. Some of them for the Morzin's, of course, but spread out across nearly 10 years, not all jammed up in 2 or 3 years.

Been listening to Hob V:1 (Wiener Philharmonia Trio), Hob XV:35 (Beaux Arts) and Hob II:11 (Linde Consort). They sound absolutely gorgeous to me, but to put them in the right context, one would have to compare them with similar contemporary works by other composers. Any suggestions?

BTW, whose Geburtstag is alluded to in Hob II:11? Fuernberg´s or Morzin´s?

[Florestan]

Well, thanks, Florestan. That is all I was hoping for when I began it. If it helps anyone else enjoy Haydn as much as I do, then it is a resounding success.

I´ve always enjoyed Haydn´s music but to have it put in historical perspective and to discover lesser known or downright ignored compositions of his is one of my greatest musical joys so far. Thanks again, buddy!

[Gurn Blanston]

Fair enough. 

Been listening to Hob V:1 (Wiener Philharmonia Trio), Hob XV:35 (Beaux Arts) and Hob II:11 (Linde Consort). They sound absolutely gorgeous to me, but to put them in the right context, one would have to compare them with similar contemporary works by other composers. Any suggestions?

BTW, whose Geburtstag is alluded to in Hob II:11? Fuernberg´s or Morzin´s?

There are not a lot of recorded divertimentos from that era. At least, not that I've run across. Other Viennese and Bohemian composers who were very popular at the time, and who there are a few recordings of, include Wagenseil and Tuma. One might be able to find some early Ditters, for example, but I'm not sure what, except for violin concertos. Let me scratch my head on this for a while. It is a good question in line with my own interests, and I should have a better answer.

[Karl Henning]

. . . One might be able to find some early Ditters, for example . . . .

Ditters: Before the Dorf

[Gurn Blanston]

Ditters: Before the Dorf

Yes, the Dorf arrived only in 1773 (in case you really wanted to know!)

[Karl Henning]

Knew I could count on you, O Gurn!    And I knew that your use of the shorter name signified.  (I could not resist the jest, as you well know.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Knew I could count on you, O Gurn!    And I knew that your use of the shorter name signified.  (I could not resist the jest, as you well know.)

Well, I know you are a big closet Ditters fan, so you were probably just baiting me... 

[Karl Henning]

If so, that's a closet even I haven't discovered, let alone come out of . . . .

[Wakefield]

I do not understand: What exactly are you disagreeing with?
That Luther personally loved music and probably composed even some tunes for Lutheran chorales is well documented. That Lutheran liturgical practice and observation of feast days etc. (there are Bach cantatas for Marian feast days and Michaelmas, for instance) is far more "catholic" than any other Protestant tradition (unless one counts High Church Anglican as "protestant") is also easy to check.

Obviously first Protestants were a lot more similar to Catholics than the Protestants of a century after, simply because first Protestants were Catholics before to be Protestants. But you can be sure: they were a lot more interested in their differences with Catholics than the other way. Simply because they believed they were proposing a new kind of relation with God.

So the most important thing to understand both groups should be searched among differences more than into similarities because similarities are a lot and obviously will lead to the conclusion: all was exactly the same thing.

Yes, Luther, for instance, was a skillful translator, poet and even musician, but there is a huge intellectual distance between "Veni redemptor gentium" and "Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland." And these guys were well disposed (at least some of them) to die to demonstrate this point.

[Gurn Blanston]

I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

This is the most current listing. Without being 'official' about it, everyone talks about them being earlier, but no one wants to commit to it without some solid documentation. But these dates reflect the logjam at the end of the 1750's which would have been physically impossible if one considers the sonatas, symphonies, divertimentos, keyboard and string trios, string quartets, concertini for keyboard quartet, etc. to have composed all in a 4 year span from 1757 to 1760. They total well over 100!       If you stretch the time back to 1753, though, not only does the yearly average go down, but the reasons for writing increase exponentially.

String Trios:
Year      Hob 5 #   Key
1757         1     E
1757         2     F
1757         3    b
1757         4    Eb
1757         6    Eb
1757         7    A
1758         8    Bb
1758        10   F
1758        11   Eb
1758        12   E
1758        13   Bb
1758        C1   C
1759        15   D
1759        D3   D
1759        F1   F
1759        G1   G
1759        A2   A
1760        A3   A
1760        D1   D
1760        B1   Bb
1760        G3   G
1760        G4   G
1760        C3   C
1760        C5   C
1763        16   C
1763        17   Eb
1763        18   Bb
1763        19   E
1763        20   G
1765        21   D

I can't even imagine an event which would have triggered the 1763 group, for example, or the lone 1765 one. 

Anyway, that's what I have. 

[Florestan]

Many thanks, Gurn.