Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

Re tertiary rhetoric, there's a lot of inter-textuality between WTC 2 and WTC 1.

Certainly.  I think there can be no question that Bach (and Mozart) meant to communicate deeper musical truths and connections to (let's use a broad term) peers.  But (among many things other) the culture of public performance was very different in Bach's place and time, e.g..

[Gurn Blanston]

Certainly.  I think there can be no question that Bach (and Mozart) meant to communicate deeper musical truths and connections to (let's use a broad term) peers.  But (among many things other) the culture of public performance was very different in Bach's place and time, e.g..

And in Mozart's, for that matter. It was only fairly into the beginning of the 19th century that (outside of London) we would see a concertizing culture which we could relate to.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I knew that could be taken further 

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, I knew that could be taken further 

I knew you knew.  I was using rhetoric on a different audience...

[Karl Henning]

Just so!

Separately . . . I am finally tucking into the Lumières box, and listening to the Jerusalem Quartet play the Op.33 № 3.  Our parakeets agree that this is well dubbed The Bird   0:)

[Florestan]

I once met someone who argued that the four Brahms symphonies should be thought of as a single mega-symphony. She was serious, an academic at Oxford University's Music Dept.

Only an academic would believe it... 

[Gurn Blanston]

It is hard to believe this weekend marks 2 years of essays on the life and times of Joe Haydn! So I ponder that this week, and also have a go at the 5 concertos for Naples. Hope you enjoy.

Who would have thought it?

Thanks to all!

[Florestan]

Joe Haydn

You, of all people!   

[Gurn Blanston]

You, of all people!   

OK, OK, Giuseppe Haydn... picky picky! 

[Florestan]

Giuseppe Haydn

Why, yes! HIP should extend to names, too. 

[Karl Henning]

Huzzah!

[Gurn Blanston]

Huzzah!

Merci, mon ami.

[Karl Henning]

Cross-post

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-haydn-should-be-mandatory.html

A particularly fine post, Jens.

[Gurn Blanston]

Cross-post

A particularly fine post, Jens.

Yes, good post, good idea. This is why I don't bash MI (NOT Mirror Image, I do bash him sometimes! ). I think it is important that the music itself gets played, played well, by whoever wants to play it or hear it. So while my personal taste (and $$ spent) is on period instrument bands, I understand the need for modern performance too.

[Florestan]

Cross-post

A particularly fine post, Jens.

Yes, yes, yes! Ten thumbs up for it!

[Mandryka]

This idea in Jens's blog is interesting

The second and more important reason – and it cannot be made often enough – is that if a large, 'generalist' orchestra doesn't play enough classical music on a regular basis and play it well, eventually it won't be able to play romantic (much less baroque) music well anymore, either. The orchestra's sound coagulates. Thickness enters in place of luxurious sonority; agility gives way to rigidity. A conductor will still be able to make the orchestra sound passable, but the orchestra won't likely be able to adapt to a conductor's particular conception of a work.

As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play music much classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti. VPO were really impressive at adapting to Harnoncourt's conceptions of Brahms.  Concertgebouw played Mozart well for him. And all these orchestras still played romantic music well.

So I don't believe that there's a link between playing classical and romantic. As far as baroque goes, my intuition there is that the more interesting connections are with contemporary music, just because in both modern and baroque music there's less emphasis on toe tapping tunes than there is in classical and romantic. 

[Karl Henning]

As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play music classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti.

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[Mandryka]

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Sure -- though I've never heard that Solti CD. But what's your point? Clearly they all played some Haydn and Mozart, with Furtwangler and Mengelberg even,  but I bet it was a small proportion of their work.

One generalist orchestra who did a lot of classical was VSO with Scherchen. But did it help them become an excellent romantic orchestra?

Added, Oh I see your point now. There's a typo in my post. It should have read "As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play MUCH classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti."

[Karl Henning]

Sure -- though I've never heard that Solti CD. But what's your point? Clearly they all played some Haydn and Mozart, with Furtwangler and Mengelberg even,  but I bet it was a small proportion of their work.

One generalist orchestra who did a lot of classical was VSO with Scherchen. But did it help them become an excellent romantic orchestra?

Added, Oh I see your point now. There's a typo in my post. It should have read "As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play MUCH classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti."

Yes!    And perhaps we may harmonize your point (that there was an epoch where the Classical symphonic lit was more or less marginalized) with Jens's (that an orchestra plays music from later epochs better, with a more "liberal arts" background, and including the Classical lit in their rep, rather than being narrower "High Romantic specialists").

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes!    And perhaps we may harmonize your point (that there was an epoch where the Classical symphonic lit was more or less marginalized) with Jens's (that an orchestra plays music from later epochs better, with a more "liberal arts" background, and including the Classical lit in their rep, rather than being narrower "High Romantic specialists").

Even on MI's, there is no reason they can't play Classic music less like High Romantic. Those who do become much better musicians, IMO.