Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

Yes, the booklet states that they are playing "authentic Italian instruments", but there is something weird here because those instruments (particularly the first violin) sound quite modern to me. Maybe the strings and bows are modern; although I may be wrong.

Yes - I agree and plan to listen to the the disc today - quoted below is the last paragraph of an excellent review from Amazon by Scott Morrison, who seems to feel the same (Source) - Dave

There have been other recordings of these quartets, but I have not heard them. I am, however, satisfied with these fine performances by the Camerata Boccherini, a group with one American and three Italian string players. They are reportedly playing on 'authentic instruments' and I don't know if that means gut-strung instruments from the period in which the quartets were written. Frankly, they sound like modern instruments to me. The recorded sound is crystal clear.

[Karl Henning]

Perhaps authentic Italian instruments is meant to distinguish them, not from MI, but from Yamaha 

[Mandryka]

Re the talk about menuets, my problem with them is the da capo. I can't remember what he does after the trio in The Clock, but I remember thinking that the third movement isn't very good music.

[Wakefield]

Perhaps authentic Italian instruments is meant to distinguish them, not from MI, but from Yamaha 

Everything is possible. 

In addition, today we frequently face this paradoxical situation: the age of the instrument doesn't say anything about its "authenticity" (a word highly discredited) because there is a lot of modern replicas faithful to the instruments of the past. As a consequence, old and new are here and now two words quite relative. 

[Mandryka]

Having ignored these recordings for years I am delving into them and finding them very enjoyable.  Listening to Vol. 2 today.



1.   Sonata for Keyboard no 19 in E minor, H 16 no 47bis 
2.   Sonata for Keyboard no 20 in B flat major, H 16 no 18 
3.   Sonata for Keyboard no 32 in G minor, H 16 no 44
4.   Sonata for Keyboard no 48 in C major, H 16 no 35
5.   Sonata for Keyboard no 50 in D major, H 16 no 37

This second volume in Jean-Efflam Bavouzet's Haydn sonata cycle is every bit as outstanding as the first. As previously, he ornaments repeats liberally and observes second-half repeats, playing the codas (if any) only the second time around--a very intelligent decision. Indeed, it works so well that I would be surprised if this doesn't turn out to be one of those "authentic" performance practices that no contemporary sources discuss because it's so obvious on purely musical grounds.

Highlights include the splendid D major sonata (No. 50), the quick outer movements of which Bavouzet invests with irresistible energy. He's equally adept in the slow, songful adagios, particularly the one that begins Sonata No. 19 (in E minor). It's also remarkable how much like updated Scarlatti Sonata No. 32 (in G minor) sounds in Bavouzet's hands. Also as before, the sonics are as brilliant and natural as the playing. A wonderful recital, from first note to last. -- David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com

Just out curiosity I listened to the G minor first movement there. What I thought was this: that the music doesn't really benefit from the instrument, it's partly the tuning I think (but I'm not sure, I've got a rubbish ear for that sort of thing, it sounds like it's been tuned to minimise dissonance, maximise beauty.) but even more importantly it's the seperatoion of the voices. When Beghin plays it the timbres of the bass and treble voices are further apart, so it sounds more like a play of voices, a drama of voices.  The music's interesting to me mostly because of the way the voices relate, but Bavouzet may have another agenda.

[Jo498]

He does not do anything after the trio. It's a literal da capo of the main menuet part. As in 95% or so of classical menuet or scherzo movements, it holds even for most of Beethoven's.

BTW it's 80 bars menuet (all repeated) and 80 bars of trio (48 of which are repeated), about twice as long as e.g. the menuet from #103

[Mandryka]

He does not do anything after the trio. It's a literal da capo of the main menuet part. As in 95% or so of classical menuet or scherzo movements, it holds even for most of Beethoven's.

BTW it's 80 bars menuet (all repeated) and 80 bars of trio (48 of which are repeated), about twice as long as e.g. the menuet from #103

And is the idea in classical style that you play the repeat in the same way or are you supposed to improvise different expression things?

[Karl Henning]

I just finished listening to the example you cited, and cannot agree with your impression.  These performances are so different, mainly because of the instrument, that it is impossible for me to make any meaningful comparison.  Beghin's instrument has a much quicker decay giving the music a much less fluid sound, more brittle.  Not that it is a bad thing, just a completely different way to hear the music.

Since I have been enjoying so much solo piano music lately, mainly from the mid- to late-19th century, I am happier with Bavouzet's sound.  But this is a new thing for me; in the past I always listened to Haydn usually by Beghin, Brautigam or Schornsheim on a variety of period instruments.

I have discovered that Haydn's music is so well writtten, much like Bach in this regard, that when played on the modern piano different colors and aspects are revealed, which were always there simply waiting to emerge.  It is not so much a matter of which is correct, or authentic, as opposed to the other; it is my opinion that the entire debate about period instruments being more "authentic" is a canard.  We can never duplicate a performance "as Haydn would have heard it" no matter how much we kid ourselves.

For me, depending upon my mood, I can equally enjoy Haydn's solo keyboard music on either a period or modern instrument.  However, I still prefer the chamber and symphonic music played on historically accurate instruments.

Yes, which I suppose is why I am content to listen to Hamelin play the sonatas, too.

[Gurn Blanston]

And is the idea in classical style that you play the repeat in the same way or are you supposed to improvise different expression things?

You are supposed to do the repeat with ornamentation, the original statement without.

Haydn requires a player who understands some things. In sonatas he wrote for public consumption, that is, publication, he often writes out only the ornamented part, this so the player knows how to do the ornaments. But this assumes the player has his stuff together enough to realize that the first statement of the theme should be without the ornaments. Very few modern players would do it that way because it isn't standard. But in 1780, standards were different. If you played all the ornaments the first time through, then what the hell are you going to play for a repeat? This is one of the reasons that later players, who lacked imagination, perhaps, decided not to play the repeat. Good idea, wrong result.

[Mandryka]

These performances are so different, mainly because of the instrument, that it is impossible for me to make any meaningful comparison.  Beghin's instrument has a much quicker decay giving the music a much less fluid sound, more brittle. 

I don't think it's just a question of instruments, though it may be partly that. Gould's phrasing in Haydn, if I remember right, is very short and clipped, and maybe Weissenberg . Both of them use short phrasing, detached hard touch. Rosen too possibly.  But sometime when I get home I'll relisten to Bavouzet on my good stereo, maybe that'll make me more favourably inclined.

I should warn you that I'm not at home so can't easily check. I could be typing crap.

I think you can make meaningful comparisons by the way -- you may say that one is more open to to antiphonal and other dramatic ideas in the music, the other is more lyrical. They may not be a way to evaluate them against each other -- I'm not sure, these questions are hard for me to think about.

[Mandryka]

You are supposed to do the repeat with ornamentation, the original statement without.

Haydn requires a player who understands some things. In sonatas he wrote for public consumption, that is, publication, he often writes out only the ornamented part, this so the player knows how to do the ornaments. But this assumes the player has his stuff together enough to realize that the first statement of the theme should be without the ornaments. Very few modern players would do it that way because it isn't standard. But in 1780, standards were different. If you played all the ornaments the first time through, then what the hell are you going to play for a repeat? This is one of the reasons that later players, who lacked imagination, perhaps, decided not to play the repeat. Good idea, wrong result.

And in (late) symphonies?

[Wakefield]

Yes, which I suppose is why I am content to listen to Hamelin play the sonatas, too.

Oh, no! That name again! A shudder runs through my back. 

[Gurn Blanston]

And in (late) symphonies?

I haven't the vaguest idea about ornaments in orchestras. I know the repeat is to be taken if written, but what they do with it is still a mystery to me. Keyboard is complicated enough!

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, no! That name again! A shudder runs through my back. 

He does a bitchin' Alkan though... 

[Jo498]

I do not think there was much of improvisation in symphonies. They were played without much rehearsal. Rather different from a piano sonata, I'd say. And e.g. the menuet in question is not a "gallant style" piece that would invite ornamentation (like e.g. the final menuet in the Diabellis, this kind of menuet is quite rare in Haydn). If taken at a quick tempo like by Norrington or Harnoncourt, the flute solo in the trio is virtuosic enough without additional ornamentation. Otherwise such solos would probably be passages where the repeat could be ornamented. But there is not so much one can do with the menuet main part that is played by full orchestra.

I do not see such a problem with a literal repeat of about 2 min of music. It's the same in sonata form movements. If one find this tedious, the music is either played boringly (which is frequently the case in menuets, I am afraid) or the person does not care much about the piece regardless of repeats or da capos.

[Mandryka]

Apart from the question of expression, there's also the issue of whether you take (all) the repeats in the da capo. In 101 does anyone know if Haydn writes out the da capo? And anyway what was his normal practice? If he just put a repeat sign then possibly there's a bit more scope for imaginative interpretation.

But anyway, expression goes well beyond ornaments. There's balances obviously, aswell as tempos and rhythms. I'd be really keen to know if anyone can think of a recording of a menuet where the da capo is taken really imaginatively. A nerdy question maybe, but I guess if anyone's got the answer, they're going to be here 

[Gurn Blanston]

Apart from the question of expression, there's also the issue of whether you take (all) the repeats in the da capo. In 101 does anyone know if Haydn writes out the da capo? And anyway what was his normal practice? If he just put a repeat sign then possibly there's a bit more scope for imaginative interpretation.

But anyway, expression goes well beyond ornaments. There's balances obviously, aswell as tempos and rhythms. I'd be really keen to know if anyone can think of a recording of a menuet where the da capo is taken really imaginatively. A nerdy question maybe, but I guess if anyone's got the answer, they're going to be here 

Ici:

[Karl Henning]

How is a string section supposed to improvise ornamentation without sounding merely inept?

[SonicMan46]

Hey All - I as on the JPC website today and placed an order for a dozen items (posted in the 'Purchases Thread') - there are a LOT of bargains there @ the moment (and the Euro is now just $1.10 for us in the USA); but, I saw the Tom Beghin box for 19 Euros ($21!) - for those who have not ordered from this German company, there is a 13 Euro fixed shipping rate 'across the pond' - so add some more discs (plenty on special at the moment).  Dave

[Mandryka]

How is a string section supposed to improvise ornamentation without sounding merely inept?

LOL.

Clearly the conductor's directing them and any changes, ornamentation or whatever, he's planned and rehearsed. Improvised is the wrong word.