Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

It's not a surprise: Szell was a magnificent rara avis. Actually, my favourite conductor among those (that I know) conducting between the 50s and 60s. Well, maybe only challenged by Bruno Walter. 

I generally like his efforts, especially with later music. If I'm wrong here, though, just spank me: was he not the conductor who refused to use Urtext scores when they were introduced in the early '60's? Seems it was his name I associate with that. The conductors before that time may have been paying homage to the idea of playing Haydn, but they were not playing Haydn, they were playing some 19th and 20th century music editor's ideas about what Haydn would have written if he had his shit together.

"Surely he didn't intentionally create a dissonance there, must be a misprint. This consonance is more what his idiom should be"

"Yes of course, Papa wouldn't use a dissonance, he was stuck in the mud. And while we're at it, move those rests and place them off the beat so it doesn't syncopate, Papa must be smooth!"

Well intentioned maybe. Full of dog poopie too.

Szell may be an exception but only because there was a rule.

I defy any HIPster of fame to (have) come up with horns more glorious than Szell. 

Any band which Anthony Halstead or Ab Koster sat in on. I actually have a significant list of horns who are not only the equal of any modern hornist you can name, but also sound better because their tone doesn't run through whatever sort of smoothing mechanism is attached to modern horns. Of course, Superhorn would be an exception...

[Wakefield]

I generally like his efforts, especially with later music. If I'm wrong here, though, just spank me: was he not the conductor who refused to use Urtext scores when they were introduced in the early '60's? Seems it was his name I associate with that. The conductors before that time may have been paying homage to the idea of playing Haydn, but they were not playing Haydn, they were playing some 19th and 20th century music editor's ideas about what Haydn would have written if he had his shit together.

"Surely he didn't intentionally create a dissonance there, must be a misprint. This consonance is more what his idiom should be"

"Yes of course, Papa wouldn't use a dissonance, he was stuck in the mud. And while we're at it, move those rests and place them off the beat so it doesn't syncopate, Papa must be smooth!"

Well intentioned maybe. Full of dog poopie too.

Szell may be an exception but only because there was a rule.

Yes, the real Haydn revival just started in the 70s, prepared by previous investigations of people like your beloved H. C. Robbins Landon. All in all, basically an achievement of the HIP movement. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, the real Haydn revival just started in the 70s, prepared by previous investigations of people like your beloved H. C. Robbins Landon. All in all, basically an achievement of the HIP movement.

Well, I really don't like to say things like that because of the impression it makes, arrogant so to say, but I will say this: no other major composer benefited more from the HIP/PI movement than did Haydn. And, less surprisingly, Mozart too. He got away from being a rococo bon-bon and became a real composer when his music began to be played on the instruments it was written for, and in the performance style he envisioned.

[Wakefield]

Well, I really don't like to say things like that because of the impression it makes, arrogant so to say...

Arrogant? Moi?

[Gurn Blanston]

Arrogant? Moi?

No, WE. WE are a small core, but with thick shells... 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

All of my pop albums have names. Seems to work okay.

[Wakefield]

No, WE. WE are a small core, but with thick shells... 

I know. 

It was approximately what I tried to say (betrayed by my macaronic English), when I wrote:

Haydn's orchestral and symphonic music is particularly refractory (much more than Mozart, for instance) to modern orchestral sound. Just after some heavy "adjustments", we are really listening to Haydn again, even played on modern instruments.

Actually, I can testify I have even listened to some authentic symphonic Haydn played on modern instruments, conducted by people like Helmut Müller-Brühl. I swear. 

[Wakefield]

Today, I was revisiting some old posts and I found names of excellent members of the past, now longly vanished into the cyberspace. I hope one day some of them will come back; people like Lethevich (Lethe), Bunny, Gabriel and FideLeo (aka flauto traverso), to name just some of them. 

[Old Listener]

Someone commented that most Haydn symphonies are never on concert programs.  Every now and then we should pause and be grateful for recorded music.  A few pages ago, someone said that No. 57 is a much better work than No. 55.  After a few clicks in my music server program, I listened to the Fischer performance of 57.  I can listen to whatever Haydn Symphony I choose whenever I want.  If I had to depend on concerts to experience Haydn's symphonies, I might hear a few often, some once and some never in my lifetime.

Szell was mentioned earlier.  I am so grateful that I can listen to his performances decades after his death.

[Jo498]

I think we tend to be a little unfair towards the Haydn reception in earlier days. He might not have been regarded the equal of Mozart but his name was well known in the early 20th century and we should also note that of Mozart's symphonies only a handful were frequently played. But Mozart had 4-5 operas that were staples of the repertoire which will never be the case with Haydn's operas.

The higher estimation of Haydn precedes HIP by some time and there had been important musicians who held Haydn in very high regard even before (e.g. Tovey). But there were no good/critical editions of many of his works before the 50s and then, 20 or more years before HIP Haydn several projects started with recording all the symphonies.
Some of them (Goberman, Blum, Jones) never completed their task but the activity in the 60s and early 70s is rather amazing, even compared to today where another prominent Haydn project, Fey's, will very probably be canceled before completion. It could also be noted that none of the HIP Haydn symphony projects of the 80s and 90s was ever completed (Solomons, Hogwood, Weil). So HIP did not help (commercially) all that much.

Sure, not all of these early 60s/70s efforts were so sensitive with respect to the difference between Haydn (esp. earlier) and later symphonic music. But the effort, and often also love and respect for the music was there.

[Florestan]

You know, dear Andrei, at least I hope so, you're one of my favorite persons on this board

A heartily reciprocated appreciation, my friend.

but sometimes I have a hard time deciding if you're being serious or just mocking.

Don´t worry, sometimes it´s hard even for me. 

[The new erato]

Arrogant? Moi?

I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

[Karl Henning]

All of my pop albums have names. Seems to work okay.

The first three Peter Gabriel albums do not, and Geffen ultimately compelled him to add a title to his fourth

[Karl Henning]

Aren't 104 instances of orchestral and symphonic music of the highest quality enough? 

In practically no cultural regard was the XXth c. monochrome

Certainly, the names Prokofiev, Sibelius, & Hindemith spring to mind as musicians of stature who had the highest respect for "Papa's" art.

Edit :: I keep forgetting that Tapatalk does that weird thing with the ampersand

[Wakefield]

I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

It's the reference, no doubt! 

[Gurn Blanston]

I think we tend to be a little unfair towards the Haydn reception in earlier days. He might not have been regarded the equal of Mozart but his name was well known in the early 20th century and we should also note that of Mozart's symphonies only a handful were frequently played. But Mozart had 4-5 operas that were staples of the repertoire which will never be the case with Haydn's operas.

The higher estimation of Haydn precedes HIP by some time and there had been important musicians who held Haydn in very high regard even before (e.g. Tovey). But there were no good/critical editions of many of his works before the 50s and then, 20 or more years before HIP Haydn several projects started with recording all the symphonies.
Some of them (Goberman, Blum, Jones) never completed their task but the activity in the 60s and early 70s is rather amazing, even compared to today where another prominent Haydn project, Fey's, will very probably be canceled before completion. It could also be noted that none of the HIP Haydn symphony projects of the 80s and 90s was ever completed (Solomons, Hogwood, Weil). So HIP did not help (commercially) all that much.

Sure, not all of these early 60s/70s efforts were so sensitive with respect to the difference between Haydn (esp. earlier) and later symphonic music. But the effort, and often also love and respect for the music was there.

Well, I DID say "well-intentioned", and I also said "they paid homage to the idea of playing Haydn"... those things were my way of saying exactly the same thing you said.    However, while I can't quote things accurately from here, the gist of what was thought was very much what we would consider patronizing of Haydn, just as it was of Mozart earlier on.  One of the compilations of essays, I think it is The Cambridge Companion to Haydn has an essay called Haydn and the Long 19th Century which you would find eye-opening if you think Haydn was always respected although neglected somewhat. It just ain't so. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

Welcome back; we will have to hear all about it! 

[Wakefield]

Well, I DID say "well-intentioned", and I also said "they paid homage to the idea of playing Haydn"... those things were my way of saying exactly the same thing you said.    However, while I can't quote things accurately from here, the gist of what was thought was very much what we would consider patronizing of Haydn, just as it was of Mozart earlier on.  One of the compilations of essays, I think it is The Cambridge Companion to Haydn has an essay called Haydn and the Long 19th Century which you would find eye-opening if you think Haydn was always respected although neglected somewhat. It just ain't so. 

As an aside: In matter of reception, I find the Haydn case very similar to another of my favourite composers: Antonio Vivaldi, who, anyway, for better o for worse, was "helped" for that gigantic "radio hit" called The Four Seasons. 

 

[Gurn Blanston]

As an aside: In matter of reception, I find the Haydn case very similar to another of my favourite composers: Antonio Vivaldi, who, anyway, for better o for worse, was "helped" for that gigantic "radio hit" called The Four Seasons. 

Yes, that famous 2-edged sword, The Four Seasons, one of the finest productions of Baroque entertainment. In both cases, I think you would find they were not appreciated until the iceberg which was their oeuvre finally came to the surface. When 90% remains hidden, appreciation can be hard to find too.

PS: In Spanish, Balakirev is at his lyrical best. Very nice! 

[Sergeant Rock]

IMO, if someone says that during the XXth Century, Haydn was generally regarded as a composer of the same importance than Mozart and Beethoven; this person would be being, as a matter of fact, highly inaccurate.

If someone says in the 21st Century that Haydn is generally regarded as a composer of the same importance as Mozart and Beethoven, that person would be inaccurate. Haydn is still not generally considered as important as Mozart and Beethoven. How many members of this board revere Haydn like we Haydnistas? The number is small actually. And the number who want HIP Haydn symphonies even smaller generally if commercial success is any indication: not a single HIP cycle completed, or likely to be completed (I have little faith in the long term viability of the Haydn 2032 project) vs four MI cycles.

While not denying the importance the HIP movement has had on Classical era music (it's been enormous obviously), I also will not deny the importance that Dorati's Symphonies and Operas had, or that McCabe's Sonatas had, or that the Beaux Arts' Trios had on the discovery of Haydn's worth beyond the named and the obvious. There was glorious Haydn being made before the HIPsters: Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer, Davis, Dorati, Jones, Goberman. Only musical bigots (yeah, you Gurn  ) refuse to listen to it. By the way, Szell always stripped down the Cleveland when he played Haydn and Mozart: the size comparable to what those composers had in Paris and London. And if he didn't have natural horns at his command, Myron Bloom certainly made up for that 

But despite all that (the efforts of both the PI and MI crowds), Haydn is still relegated to the second team in the minds of most classical music lovers. Sad, and maddening.

Sarge