Haydn's Haus

[Brian]

No, I must have meant the Hogwood BBC, sorry, just a mistake on my part.
I am not aware of any odd or rare Haydn with Brüggen.

Maybe we should all confuse Gurn by mixing up the names of performers when we talk about CDs. I was really enjoying my Savall Paukenmesse last night...

[Gurn Blanston]

No, I must have meant the Hogwood BBC, sorry, just a mistake on my part.
I am not aware of any odd or rare Haydn with Brüggen.
(There is a Harnoncourt/Concentus DVD with the Oxford symphony and vocal music with Bartoli, that's the only somewhat obscure Haydn recording I have...)

Phew! Good deal then. Anyway, yes, I have that DVD, have watched it several times. Bartoli's facial expressions were new to me, but her voice is brilliant enough to overcome!

Maybe we should all confuse Gurn by mixing up the names of performers when we talk about CDs. I was really enjoying my Savall Paukenmesse last night...

You're just wrong, Brain.... 

[Jo498]

I will have to check when I get home because I don't want to err here, but I am pretty sure you are right, Hogwood IS the only PI recording of A & B. Also there are 2 (IIRC) symphonies in the 50's which they did both versions of. There are a lot of combinations one can look for, such as with and without trumpets and timpani or with or without the slow introduction, or the bassoons.

As far as alternative versions go, I am also pretty sure, Hogwood is the only HIP game in town (and the only alternative at all may be Dorati (who did some alternative movements, not sure if as thorough as Hogwood), Fischer does not have alternative movements and I do not know whether Russel Davies or Naxos do).

Going backwards: 82-104 and the concertante are no problem, there's Kuijken for all of them, several others for Paris and at least Hickox and Minkowski for the London (Norrington did only half, I think?).

Goodman did 70-78, Freiburger/Goltz did 80 and we already covered that 79 and 81 are the first HIP ever.
Harnoncourt did 69 and 60 (68 with Concertgebouw), Weil 64 and 65, and I think Solomons had some of the 60s but they are not available as official CD.
So for 61-63, 66-68 Hogwood might be the only HIP so far.
Same for 55-57; Harnoncourt did 53 and Pinnock (and probably others) 50-52.
40s except 40 are covered by Pinnock and also Goodman and partly by Weil.
Goodman has 1-25.
But for 27-29 and 32-34, 36, 37 I am not aware of any alternatives. Pinnock has 26, 35, 38, 39, Harnoncourt 30 and 31.

I don't know about the ones by Solomons unavailable or never on CD and there are some more I am only vaguely aware of, but it seems that about 20 symphonies would be very hard to find on historical instruments except for Hogwood's recordings.

[Gurn Blanston]

As far as alternative versions go, I am also pretty sure, Hogwood is the only HIP game in town (and the only alternative at all may be Dorati (who did some alternative movements, not sure if as thorough as Hogwood), Fischer does not have alternative movements and I do not know whether Russel Davies or Naxos do).

Going backwards: 82-104 and the concertante are no problem, there's Kuijken for all of them, several others for Paris and at least Hickox and Minkowski for the London (Norrington did only half, I think?).

Goodman did 70-78, Freiburger/Goltz did 80 and we already covered that 79 and 81 are the first HIP ever.
Harnoncourt did 69 and 60 (68 with Concertgebouw), Weil 64 and 65, and I think Solomons had some of the 60s but they are not available as official CD.
So for 61-63, 66-68 Hogwood might be the only HIP so far.
Same for 55-57; Harnoncourt did 53 and Pinnock (and probably others) 50-52.
40s except 40 are covered by Pinnock and also Goodman and partly by Weil.
Goodman has 1-25.
But for 27-29 and 32-34, 36, 37 I am not aware of any alternatives. Pinnock has 26, 35, 38, 39, Harnoncourt 30 and 31.

I don't know about the ones by Solomons unavailable or never on CD and there are some more I am only vaguely aware of, but it seems that about 20 symphonies would be very hard to find on historical instruments except for Hogwood's recordings.

I'll make a list tonight, but what you have sounds about right, except for the exact numbers on the Solomons. I remember back when I was writing essays on certain symphonies, I was surprised to discover that my Hogwood's were the only (PI, need I say that?) recordings I had! But there are some unusual things, Hogwood does one symphony in the version without trumpets and timpani, while Solomons does it with trumpets and timpani. Sorry I can't remember which one it is, somewhere in the mid-sixties though. There are also versions of #48 which get the same treatment, since Haydn's original trumpet parts were lost.

There are some other groups which you are missing altogether, which are very worthwhile: The Apollo Ensemble/John Hsu does 5 or 6 disks, as early as 6-8 & 12, and some of the S&D and later. Martin Haselböck and the Vienna Academy likewise do 6-8, and also Hornsignal  (31), along with 94, 101, 73 (La chasse) and a couple others. 3 disks in all, in addition to their super 'Organ Masses' disk. All on Novalis. Some one-offs like Arion Baroque (41, 44 & 49) and Anima Eterna (44 & 45 + keyboard concerto #11) are outstanding, and there again, one of Arion Baroque's is the only version of that symphony without the trumpets and timpani. In the Londons, the 2 disks that Hickox got done before he died are definitely worthwhile. Tafelmusik goes without saying, and Amsterdam Baroque/Koopman (44, 45, 49) is very good too. And the couple by Freiburg Baroque.

All that being said, you simply cannot make a full set without Hogwood and Dantone. I'll make a list tonight, now you have me curious myself.

[Jo498]

I did not mean to give a complete list (neither do I have all the recordings I mentioned), just a quick check for which pieces there is no HIP alternative to Hogwood (or only "theoretical" like some of the LP only Solomons).
Myself, I am largely happy with what I have and it's mainly Vol. 9+10 of the Hogwood series I might snap if occasion arises. Or if there would (but there won't) be a CD box with all extant Solomons recordings (I have only 6 symphonies on two single discs).

[Gurn Blanston]

I did not mean to give a complete list (neither do I have all the recordings I mentioned), just a quick check for which pieces there is no HIP alternative to Hogwood (or only "theoretical" like some of the LP only Solomons).
Myself, I am largely happy with what I have and it's mainly Vol. 9+10 of the Hogwood series I might snap if occasion arises. Or if there would (but there won't) be a CD box with all extant Solomons recordings (I have only 6 symphonies on two single discs).

No, for sure, I understand that! A lot of good recordings get overlooked and some others get all the advertising, which is unfortunate sometimes.

I'm still looking for bargain prices on 9 & 10, I'll let you know if I run across some. I was just patient with mine and got a few good deals, which is what I presume you are doing.

I am attaching a pdf to this, it has my collection of PI symphonies. The column at the right tells the total recordings of that symphony, while the row at the bottom tells the total number of symphonies that band/conductor have recorded. The reason I did this was to make it a little easier for interested persons. It took me several years to find out some of this information. In virtually every case, this is the complete recordings by that group/conductor, so it isn't like there is something else hanging out there.

If it is of interest, feel free to use it.

[Jo498]

Thanks, this is a fascinating list!
Not too surprising that there is a bunch of 6/7/8, more surprising that there are so many of #12. I am surprised that there are so many with Solomons that were never on CD... (except for the "Haydn House" dubs).
It is also somewhat surprising that there are only three complete HIP London sets; I thought the Hickox had been completed. Weil has started another one, I think but only half or less. Norrington and Harnoncourt recorded them but not on old instruments throughout.

The ca. 13 symphonies by Solomons that officially came on Sony/CBS CDs are sometimes available used for decent prices; a few years ago I might have snapped them up. But I have 6 (two singles with 26,39,45,48,49,59) and the others are almost all from the "Sturm&Drang" where I already have Pinnock and Brüggen, and I don't really have space or feel any need for more doubling. Granted, Solomons is fairly unique, sounding even smaller than Hogwood but with a lot of nervous energy.

That's also why I am passing the big Hogwood box and rather go for the last two volumes with pieces that are only partly covered by Goodman.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, this is a fascinating list!
Not too surprising that there is a bunch of 6/7/8, more surprising that there are so many of #12. I am surprised that there are so many with Solomons that were never on CD... (except for the "Haydn House" dubs).
It is also somewhat surprising that there are only three complete HIP London sets; I thought the Hickox had been completed. Weil has started another one, I think but only half or less. Norrington and Harnoncourt recorded them but not on old instruments throughout.

The ca. 13 symphonies by Solomons that officially came on Sony/CBS CDs are sometimes available used for decent prices; a few years ago I might have snapped them up. But I have 6 (two singles with 26,39,45,48,49,59) and the others are almost all from the "Sturm&Drang" where I already have Pinnock and Brüggen, and I don't really have space or feel any need for more doubling. Granted, Solomons is fairly unique, sounding even smaller than Hogwood but with a lot of nervous energy.

That's also why I am passing the big Hogwood box and rather go for the last two volumes with pieces that are only partly covered by Goodman.

Actually, it rather surprised me, too, since I hadn't ever looked at the data in quite this way before. Certain ones, like #12, which seem like an oddity, are recorded for other reasons too, I think. Two movements #12 were originally, according to Manfred Huss, entr'acte's for the first real opera, Acide, to which he added a movement the following year to make a symphony. So it gets into some theatrical symphony compilations and uses (I have it in a recording of La Canterina, too). Plus, it is a very nice, early symphony, always on my favorites list.

What surprises me are the works which Solomons didn't record! Like the Times of Day, for example. Or, he did 10 & 11 but not 12! And there are only 3 recordings of #22. Was the Cor Anglaise too difficult for the average oboist? I do think the 2 chubby Solomons boxes are a necessity though, the playing is excellent, even though they are, as you say, not overpopulated.  And then the really thin ones: 1 recording each of 29, 34 & 36! Clearly there is room for more, it isn't a crowded field once they get away from S&D, Paris and London!

I really think Hickox would have finished his, if death hadn't intervened. And I don't understand why Norrington did the last 6 but not the 6 before that. What's up with that? 

I think Pinnock is underrated, but I can only say it's because he elected to record the part of the oeuvre with the most competition. I have anywhere from 5 to 10 recordings of every work he recorded, and so even though his are very nice, I could live without them. If he had done 76-81 though, or some in the 50's & 60's, then they would suddenly become indispensable!

[Jo498]

I have not heard important parts of the competition in the works Pinnock recorded (basically only Brüggen, the few with Solomons I have and some on modern instruments) but I found his Sturm&Drang-Box (don't have 6-8) excellent and maybe the "safest" recommendation. It has very good playing and sound (no "odd noises" from old instruments), straightforward interpretations (skips a few repeats in longer movements, I think) and some discreet harpsichord contribution. His was my first larger partial Haydn symphony box, I think, but I do not remember exactly when I bought it, I had the two Solomons discs earlier, though.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have not heard important parts of the competition in the works Pinnock recorded (basically only Brüggen, the few with Solomons I have and some on modern instruments) but I found his Sturm&Drang-Box (don't have 6-8) excellent and maybe the "safest" recommendation. It has very good playing and sound (no "odd noises" from old instruments), straightforward interpretations (skips a few repeats in longer movements, I think) and some discreet harpsichord contribution. His was my first larger partial Haydn symphony box, I think, but I do not remember exactly when I bought it, I had the two Solomons discs earlier, though.

Oh, no doubt, Pinnock is a very safe recommendation, I would be hard-pressed to justify any criticism of it. I only wish he hadn't stuck to the repertoire which is so much on a well-beaten path already. I think he could have made a bigger contribution in some of the rarer items. This is always a problem when you are dealing with such a large oeuvre as Haydn's; where do we begin??

[Jo498]

I don't even know how much Pinnock had to say in things like that. These recordings were made in 1988-89, at the beginning/height of the CD boom. I have no idea if there ever were plans to do more; at the same time DG had already started the Haydn project with the Orpheus chamber orchestra (not sure if this was ever meant to be complete) and I also don't know how independent "Archiv" was from "DG" in 1990. And Archiv might have been more adventurous than DG but it seems that Haydn did not even sell very well at the height of the CD boom (otherwise why pull the plug on the almost complete Hogwood and the budding Weil sets in the 1990s?)

I don't know how and according to which criteria the "Sturm&Drang" set is picked but Brüggen did the same 19 pieces several years later (Hogwood has them spread across Vols. 5-7).
Understandable that works like 44,45 etc. are quite popular. But 58 and 65 vs. e.g. 73-81? Seems a strange effect.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't even know how much Pinnock had to say in things like that. These recordings were made in 1988-89, at the beginning/height of the CD boom. I have no idea if there ever were plans to do more; at the same time DG had already started the Haydn project with the Orpheus chamber orchestra (not sure if this was ever meant to be complete) and I also don't know how independent "Archiv" was from "DG" in 1990. And Archiv might have been more adventurous than DG but it seems that Haydn did not even sell very well at the height of the CD boom (otherwise why pull the plug on the almost complete Hogwood and the budding Weil sets in the 1990s?)

I don't know how and according to which criteria the "Sturm&Drang" set is picked but Brüggen did the same 19 pieces several years later (Hogwood has them spread across Vols. 5-7).
Understandable that works like 44,45 etc. are quite popular. But 58 and 65 vs. e.g. 73-81? Seems a strange effect.

Probably not a whole lot. I'm sure the Label did most of the choosing, perhaps disguised as 'would you like to do this or this?".

I think Haydn sales were drastically up during the period from 1975 to 2000, simply because of availability and also better quality and variety of performance material. Haydn sales will never match Mozart, Beethoven or Bach, but nothing else will either! That is only a disappointment if you entered with unrealistic expectations to begin with.

[Gurn Blanston]

In 1792, Haydn hit up on two genres he had not previously touched. While you may know the Sinfonia concertante, how many times have you seen a madrigal from the Late Classic Era!! I was curious about that myself, so I chased down some info this week. Hope you enjoy it. 

Not just any storm!

[Old Listener]

In 1792, Haydn hit up on two genres he had not previously touched. While you may know the Sinfonia concertante, how many times have you seen a madrigal from the Late Classic Era!! I was curious about that myself, so I chased down some info this week. Hope you enjoy it. 

Not just any storm!

A most welcome article.  I have many favorites among Haydn's works but the Sinfonia concertante is in the top rank.

[Gurn Blanston]

A most welcome article.  I have many favorites among Haydn's works but the Sinfonia concertante is in the top rank.

Thanks, and I agree with you, I have been a fan of the SC since the first time I heard it. i discovered that when I really listened to it, it is far more intricate than I ever realized.

 

[carlito77]

Hi Gurn,

You're talking about one of my favorite composers, Mozart being the other. I remember reading about when Napoleon invaded Vienna, he gave strict instructions to his soldiers not to violate Haydn's house, or Haus. Haydn was sick at the time and was visited by Bonaparte's senior officers who played music and sang for him. This is the respect he had all over Europe.

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Gurn,

You're talking about one of my favorite composers, Mozart being the other. I remember reading about when Napoleon invaded Vienna, he gave strict instructions to his soldiers not to violate Haydn's house, or Haus. Haydn was sick at the time and was visited by Bonaparte's senior officers who played music and sang for him. This is the respect he had all over Europe.

Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

Well, in my opinion, your obviously impeccable good taste has led you right to the top of the composers pyramid. 

[Karl Henning]

Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

And in a handbasket, too!

[Gurn Blanston]

And in a handbasket, too!

Amen, brother Karl!   0:)

[carlito77]

Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

Well, in my opinion, your obviously impeccable good taste has led you right to the top of the composers pyramid. 

Gurn, thanks for your comments but I'm not sure what you meant by crash and burn. What happened to Haydn during the waning years of his life?