Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

Haydn was 2 years in the grave when Liszt was born, so it really doesn't bear comparison.

It´s not a matter of chronology, but of pan-Europeanism --- your own term, which you used as allegedly defining Classicism in contradistinction to Romanticism, which allegedly was nationalist. Now, Liszt´s music draws its inspiration from the history or folklore of, and composers / writers / painters from, France, Hungary, Germany, Italy, England, Spain, Ukraine and Romania. He travelled and was widely known all across Europe, from Lisbon to Kiev and from London to Naples. How much more pan-European must one get in order to receive your stamp of approval? 

[Gurn Blanston]

It´s not a matter of chronology, but of pan-Europeanism --- your own term, which you used as allegedly defining Classicism in contradistinction to Romanticism, which allegedly was nationalist. Now, Liszt´s music draws its inspiration from the history or folklore of, and composers / writers / painters from, France, Hungary, Germany, Italy, England, Spain, Ukraine and Romania. He travelled and was widely known all across Europe, from Lisbon to Kiev and from London to Naples. How much more pan-European must one get in order to receive your stamp of approval? 

I certainly wasn't using it to define classicism, or the Classic Era. I was saying that during the 19th century it disappeared in favor of Nationalism. During the 19th century doesn't necessarily mean in 1801...

[Florestan]

I certainly wasn't using it to define classicism, or the Classic Era. I was saying that during the 19th century it disappeared in favor of Nationalism. During the 19th century doesn't necessarily mean in 1801...

Liszt was born in 1811 and began his career in 1830s. Just saying. 

Here are some more Romantic cosmopolitans: Byron, Berlioz and Shelley.

Please name one single Romantic who was a fiercely, uncompromisingly nationalist as the term is employed today.

(boy, do I just love these intellectual brawls...  )

[Gurn Blanston]

Liszt was born in 1811 and began his career in 1830s. Just saying. 

Here are some more Romantic cosmopolitans: Byron, Berlioz and Shelley.

Please name one single Romantic who was a fiercely, uncompromisingly nationalist as the term is employed today.

(boy, do I just love these intellectual brawls...  )

No, I won't. It's quite honestly something I don't give a shit about. Nothing personal, you understand, but that's the thing right there. If you want to be the only person in the world who wishes to refuse to admit that the general climate in Europe turned from pan-Europeanism to Nationalism during the 19th century, I am certainly not the person to talk you out of it.   

[Florestan]

the general climate in Europe turned from pan-Europeanism to Nationalism during the 19th century

Please, define pan-Europeanism! Please, define Nationalism!

If you think this is highjacking your thread, please switch to my salon! You are more than welcome! 

[Jo498]

Maybe we can agree on the following:
- There are some nationalist strains arising in the 19th century that did not exist before. They sometimes also concern the arts but not always and not always in the same way.
- There are obviously also some internationalist "movements" either new (like socialism/marxism) or similar to the ones pervading the pan-european upper class of the 18th century. (Or the Catholic church which is also internationalist - some romantics cultivated a love of the pan-european catholic medieval times)
- In the 18th century at least in some artistic branches the "internationalism" was often simply Italian (style and language) dominance, e.g. in opera (and in other fields often French dominance). This was considered a problem (rather independent of any political nationalism) e.g. in the German speaking countries. Thus both Mozart and Emperor Joseph had the advancement of German language opera on their agenda, despite also contributing to the dominance of italian opera.
- in the 19th century this development continued and was sometimes fused with some strains of political nationalism, both in German speaking and in some of the regions within the Austrian Empire as well as in the Russian Empire and in Italy while it struggled to establish itself as a nation state
- very few composers can be clearly identified as "nationalist". E.g., Wagner was politically more of a socialist/anarchist but stuff like Lohengrin, Meistersinger and even the Ring also appeals to a brand of Germanicism that can be associated with Nationalism. Brahms wrote almost no political or nationalist sounding music (hungarian dances...) but one clearly chauvinist-nationalist piece, the Triumphlied (although this sounds like romanticized Handel, not particularly German).

[carlito77]

Speaking of nationalism, was Haydn and Mozart German? I know many historians and musical pundits considered them Austrian but there was no concept of a nation state during their time. So there was no Austria or Germany for that fact as they were both remnants for the Holy Roman Empire as far as I know. But if I'm not mistaking, German was the mother tongue of both Hyadn and Mozart. So they could both be classified as ethnically German. I'm curious because I've read about Austrians today getting indignant when they read about Mozart being called a German composer.

[Gurn Blanston]

Speaking of nationalism, was Haydn and Mozart German? I know many historians and musical pundits considered them Austrian but there was no concept of a nation state during their time. So there was no Austria or Germany for that fact as they were both remnants for the Holy Roman Empire as far as I know. But if I'm not mistaking, German was the mother tongue of both Hyadn and Mozart. So they could both be classified as ethnically German. I'm curious because I've read about Austrians today getting indignant when they read about Mozart being called a German composer.

Both Haydn and Mozart were ethnically German. They spoke German, they spoke of themselves as 'German'. Salzburg at the time was an city-state sandwiched between Bavaria (another city-state, now a region of Germany) and Carinthia, now a region of Austria. As far as culture goes, Salzburg was totally aligned with Austria, because it was the home of the Holy Roman Emperor. Bearing in mind that they were mainly Catholics (they booted out the Protestants earlier on), they naturally aligned with the Catholic ruler. However, Leopold and Maria, Mozart's parents, were originally from Augsburg, which is in Bavaria, so they were ethnically German, and given that Bavaria is part of modern Germany, you could say he was German too.

Haydn was also ethnically German, both his parents being that. However, Rohrau, where he was born, is now part of Austria, but it was then on the border of Hungary, and was mainly populated by people who can be considered Hungarian, as it was known then, that is, Croats, Roms, Magyars etc. For this reason, Haydn's earliest cultural experiences, including musically, were Hungarian 'Gypsy' type folk musics. This is why that style always came so readily to hand in later life when he was developing his own musical language. In addition, Haydn's long-time employers, the Esterházy Family, were fully Hungarian, not German at all.

And while I am patiently avoiding all the Nationalism stuff, it is plain to see, if one wanted to get into it, how debates like this arose ever since the formation of a unified German state. In my opinion, it should all be irrelevant to people like Mozart and Haydn who were long gone by the time that state came into being. If you had walked up to either of them in 1785 and asked that same question, they would have probably both said 'Viennese', for what that's worth.

[Que]

I quite agree.  Though both seem these days to be dubbed as "Austrians" since they lived in the Habsburg Empire.
As I understand it, before the emergence of a unified "Germany" all German speakers considered themselves "Germans". Including German speaking inhabitans of the Habsburg Empire, which was a multi-national/ethnic state. Only after the advent of Germany, other "Germans" in for example Austria, Switzerland,  Liechtenstein and Luxemburg developed separate "national" identities.

I would hardly call Bavaria a "city-state" BTW. 
It was a duchy and, after the abolishement of the Holy Roman Empire, a kingdom (almost) the size of Ireland and larger than some of the smaller states in the US.
It is almost twice the size of the Netherlands! (Not that that is very remarkable.... )

Q

[Gurn Blanston]

I quite agree.  Though both seem these days to be dubbed as "Austrians" since they lived in the Habsburg Empire.
As I understand it, before the emergence of a unified "Germany" all German speakers considered themselves "Germans". Including German speaking inhabitans of the Habsburg Empire, which was a multi-national/ethnic state. Only after the advent of Germany, other "Germans" in for example Austria, Switzerland,  Liechtenstein and Luxemburg developed separate "national" identities.

I would hardly call Bavaria a "city-state" BTW. 
It was a duchy and, after the abolishement of the Holy Roman Empire, a kingdom (almost) the size of Ireland and larger than some of the smaller states in the US.
It is almost twice the size of the Netherlands! (Not that that is very remarkable.... )

Q

  Don't forget, I'm a Texan. I tend to think of Western Europe as a city-state.   

Certainly your take on it and my own are congruent.

[Scion7]

Texas is sort of like a modern-day classic Greece -
with the city-states of Dallas and Houston warring for prestige,
and Ted Nugent recording live albums in San Antonio, the cultural center.
And Cruz can be the oracle.
             

[Gurn Blanston]

Texas is sort of like a modern-day classic Greece -
with the city-states of Dallas and Houston warring for prestige,
and Ted Nugent recording live albums in San Antonio, the cultural center.
And Cruz can be the oracle.
             

We were all good until you brought Cruz into it... 

[carlito77]

Thanks for all the info on Haydn and Mozart. But you're not all advocating that Texas should secede from the union? There's actually a movement in Texas advocating secession. Maybe the U.S. should do the honorable thing and give it back to Mexico. After all, they literally stole it from Mexico and probably half the population in Texas is Mexican already. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for all the info on Haydn and Mozart. But you're not all advocating that Texas should secede from the union? There's actually a movement in Texas advocating secession. Maybe the U.S. should do the honorable thing and give it back to Mexico. After all, they literally stole it from Mexico and probably half the population in Texas is Mexican already. 

No, not me! 

Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country. It's true though, there is no shortage of Texicans, and the best food in all the world IS Tex-Mex, which I can guarantee, never saw Mexico! 

[Scion7]

What one must do when pondering these succession problems is ask oneself:

                 What would Haydn have done?

0:)

[SonicMan46]

No, not me! 

Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country. It's true though, there is no shortage of Texicans, and the best food in all the world IS Tex-Mex, which I can guarantee, never saw Mexico! 

Now Gurn - you should know better, i.e. Texas entered the Union at the end of 1845 after James Polk assumed the presidency after his election in November 1844, our Jacksonian protege and a man of the Manifest Destiny goal for the country - in fact, during his one-term presidency he added more land to the United States than any other (Source), mainly through helping to instigate the Mexican-American War (1846-48) - shown below is the territory gained after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (see image below in green; and this does not include the British treaties for the Oregon territories) - SO, for those wanting to give back Texas to Mexico, we might need to return the other 'property' -   Dave

P.S. thanks for the concise and clear (or not?) summary to the 'German' question of Haydn & Mozart.

[Gurn Blanston]

Now Gurn - you should know better, i.e. Texas entered the Union at the end of 1845 after James Polk assumed the presidency after his election in November 1844, our Jacksonian protege and a man of the Manifest Destiny goal for the country - in fact, during his one-term presidency he added more land to the United States than any other (Source), mainly through helping to instigate the Mexican-American War (1846-48) - shown below is the territory gained after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (see image below in green; and this does not include the British treaties for the Oregon territories) - SO, for those wanting to give back Texas to Mexico, we might need to return the other 'property' -   Dave

P.S. thanks for the concise and clear (or not?) summary to the 'German' question of Haydn & Mozart.

  I'm from Vermont. Here, they are supposed to study that stuff in school. I got my Texas history from 'Remember the Alamo'. I just knew the US hadn't stolen it from Mexico, it was already a free country. You aren't allowed to live here not knowing that!   

I hope it was clear anyway, that's something I have studied! I have found that almost the hardest part of dealing with 18th century European history is putting modern territorial names and boundaries out of your head. There were Italians, but there was no Italy. There were Germans but there was no Germany. And what about the Austrian Netherlands? They were a major pawn on the European chessboard from 1714 to 1797, but even Que didn't mention them!   

Nice to have you visit Da Haus, Dave, long time no see!

[Scion7]

It says right thar on Gurn's drivers license:  "Republic of Texas"



and .... and is that a FREEMASON's card I see in his wallet!?!?!?

     

[SonicMan46]

  I'm from Vermont. Here, they are supposed to study that stuff in school. I got my Texas history from 'Remember the Alamo'. I just knew the US hadn't stolen it from Mexico, it was already a free country. You aren't allowed to live here not knowing that!   

I hope it was clear anyway, that's something I have studied! I have found that almost the hardest part of dealing with 18th century European history is putting modern territorial names and boundaries out of your head. There were Italians, but there was no Italy. There were Germans but there was no Germany. And what about the Austrian Netherlands? They were a major pawn on the European chessboard from 1714 to 1797, but even Que didn't mention them!   

Nice to have you visit Da Haus, Dave, long time no see!

Hi again Gurn - yep, that European history over the centuries is utterly confusing, just the maps of the changing countries, territories, or whatever names may be applied is a kaleidoscope - understand completely. 

Nice to revisit Da Haus - have not been listening much to Papa Haydn lately, but did acquire the 2-CD set below recently - love that group - NEED to get back into some more Haydn listening - he & JS Bach comprise dozens (maybe several hundreds) of discs in my collection -   Dave

[Florestan]

Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country.

I'm from Vermont.

There is no natiionalist more rabid than an assimilated foreigner...