Pierre Boulez (1925-2016)

[ritter]

I disagree, from my observations, he was a composer who judged (or interpreted) the merit of the music he listened, studied and conducted in accordance with his own artistic vision and values.

As for tape/electronic music is particular, from what I remember; didn't he believe (like Ligeti) that electronics where still too adolescent to produce anything "long lasting"? 

I tend to agree with you, alien. Apart from the fact that these theories of "X was jealous of Y" (when we're talking, in this case, of two titanic figures of 20th century music) make little sense IMHO, Boulez himself (in an interview I read of his form the early 2000s) acknowledged Stockhausen's inventiveness (apart from having earlier saluted him as his only "peer" among living composers  ). When the interviewer expressed some surprise at that remark, Boulez added: "I said he was inventive, not that he was self-critical" (*). And that, I believe, is in essence the diffrence in the way those two men worked.

And yes, Boulez "gave up" on the use of tape in his compositions, but then the contribution he made to the use of real-time electronics (the IRCAM software that is so widespread these days) is immense, and he put it to stunning use in a work like Répons (which really has to be experienced live to understand what it is all about).

(*) He then went one, in his usally humorous-malicious manner, to say that the only thing that could make the Helicopter SQ interesting was for "one of the helicpoiters to crash or something like that".  0:)

[Joaquimhock]

If you understand French you can listen to this interview of Boulez's nephew (and film producer) Pierre Chevalier who wrote a few interesting things about his uncle. For those who are fond of gossips you will even learn that Boulez and a very famous French/Spanish actress had a love affair in the 50' but that they split up because she wanted to make a "ménage à trois" with..... Albert Camus but Boulez didn't want to...
Pierre Chevalier add too that despite what it has been said his uncle was not gay and had a "monastic" way of life.

They also speak of more musically oriented things :-)

https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/classic-club/boulez-intime-33197

[Joaquimhock]

The Quatuor Diotima in this interview, says that Boulez's Livre pour quatuor will be "finished" by Philippe Manoury, next year.... They say Boulez has gave them enough clues and advices to let someone else add the required details.... First time someone will touch the work of the master. Perhaps the same could be done with Notations.....?

http://brunoserrou.blogspot.be/2017/04/quatuor-diotima-21-ans-douverture.html

[James]

I tend to agree with you, alien. Apart from the fact that these theories of "X was jealous of Y" (when we're talking, in this case, of two titanic figures of 20th century music) make little sense IMHO, Boulez himself (in an interview I read of his form the early 2000s) acknowledged Stockhausen's inventiveness (apart from having earlier saluted him as his only "peer" among living composers  ). When the interviewer expressed some surprise at that remark, Boulez added: "I said he was inventive, not that he was self-critical" (*). And that, I believe, is in essence the diffrence in the way those two men worked.

And yes, Boulez "gave up" on the use of tape in his compositions, but then the contribution he made to the use of real-time electronics (the IRCAM software that is so widespread these days) is immense, and he put it to stunning use in a work like Répons (which really has to be experienced live to understand what it is all about).

(*) He then went one, in his usally humorous-malicious manner, to say that the only thing that could make the Helicopter SQ interesting was for "one of the helicpoiters to crash or something like that".  0:)

Honestly, Boulez is a virtual non-entity when it comes to composition and the larger musical picture. Stockhausen was a much, much better musician and composer. Ditto Ligeti .. (the greatest of the 3) .. but still all of them are extremely uneven and really nothing compared to the Greats.

[James]

Compared to themselves? 

They are the greats 

Nowhere damn near them to be realistic. Anyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional.

[Karl Henning]

Anyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional.

Apparently oblivious to irony.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[James]

I've said it so many times before, the 2nd half of the 20th century was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what Boulez & Stockhausen did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and as objective as possible about these things!

[Mahlerian]

I've said it so many times before, the music of my day was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what those damn radicals did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and objective as possible about these things!

There.  Now it can be a rant from anyone of any era!

[kishnevi]

James saying Stockhausen is not all that great?

Obviously an alien from Yuggoth has taken over his mind.

[Mahlerian]

Nice snowclone, but Gesualdo lived in the 16th-early 17th century, and the other two in the 12th century.

[Mahlerian]

It don't matter 

Indeed.   

[snyprrr]

I've said it so many times before, the 2nd half of the 20th century was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what Boulez & Stockhausen did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and as objective as possible about these things!

I know what you're saying.


The quickest way I know of for a Classical Snob to get a taste of the real world, is to play some cherished Masterpiece of High Modernism... look folks, it really only takes early Schoenberg,... anyhow, play this piece that YOU JUST KNOW this friend/lover/family memebr/respected person... just a "normal" person, and play them you piece,... and then watch the reaction... which shouldn't take long!

Look, I was in the car with this one lady, and I had brought Schubert Trios... I don't know, I thought they'd be soothing... NO!!...and when she started to "OMG, turn that shit off I can't think, how can you listen to that..." and she made screetchy violin skrank noises... and I was listening to the music, and in my mind,... I had to agree... it was at a particularly "emotional" point, and yes, the piano and strings were all aflutter everywhere, and yes, it wasn't what ANYONE SHOULD WANT TO HEAR. And here we are blasting Boulez et al, and now I'm hearing Schubert as a musical trainwreck of emotion because it wasn't SOOTHING. And Shumann?,... please.

So, normal people like the first few moments of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto, and then, when the "cool part" ends, and the reality of Classical Music begins, normal people just hear wanka wanka wanka wanka wanka.


Now getting back to the point...

Play "Your Music" to anyone you like, you'll probably get the kind of reaction that will make you run to turn it off, feeling you may become sullied with their ignorance if you let them hear just one more second of your Precious. It's happened to me.

"Oh man, when you hear this Xenakis, you're really going to flip"

Then, the crickets.

Your face goes white. "Oh no, could I be living a lie? My friend thinks it's shit. What?... Wait... I need my safe space"

Oh, lol, Mirror Image, you need to play some Schnittke to your family or friends... I gotta hear how that goes!


I remember I played something for someone once, and at once I could hear AS THEM, and thinking, this is insane, egotistical bullshit elitist crap. I turned it off immediately and put on some... Kansas, or something ( )... "tone wooshes"

NORMAL PEOPLE THINK "TONE WOOSH" MUSIC IS CLASSICAL MUSIC!! That includes,... gulp,... Yanni.


I know, I'm ranting.


But, guys, the music we love SUCKS!! Embrace it!! I've been listening to 'Canticum Sacrum' a lot lately,.. and,... I kiiinda like it,... but I KNOW it "sucks", because, duuude, compared to Bach,... come on. ANY NORMAL PERSON would have us committed if they could.


SDOOO.........

MORAL OF THE STORY

MORAL OF THE STORY

MORAL OF THE STORY

Be thankful that we have a bunch of nerd heads here that we can have such wanky great conversations with, fighting amongst ourselves, and debating the finer points of the hairs on a camel's ass (basically, right?). So, please, everybody, we seriously haaave to take some humor to all this horribly challenging music... because,... frankly... guys... most of it sounds like farts and bleeps..

Your mother STILL loves you though, even though you listen to that godless crap!!




"Don't you have any nice music?"

[snyprrr]

It's probably no accident that the Hadyn Thread is right below this one right now.

[snyprrr]

I like 'Live pour Quatuor', which no one seems to like; I think it's an effluous(?) Webern.

I like 'Repons' and all that kind of stuff, but I wish they were written by someone else with more of a sense of humor and gamesmanship: even though 'Repons' does have the interaction and ping/pong effect, his style could have benefited from a Donatoni like humor and bubbling effervescence.

How dry is 'Pli Selon Pli' compared to the driest Stravinsky?


I mean, no one else clung to the comb over like Boulez,... he was hiding something... his hatred of his own music?

[snyprrr]

A Great Willful Conductor

[Mandryka]

If you understand French you can listen to this interview of Boulez's nephew (and film producer) Pierre Chevalier who wrote a few interesting things about his uncle. For those who are fond of gossips you will even learn that Boulez and a very famous French/Spanish actress had a love affair in the 50' but that they split up because she wanted to make a "ménage à trois" with..... Albert Camus but Boulez didn't want to...
Pierre Chevalier add too that despite what it has been said his uncle was not gay and had a "monastic" way of life.

They also speak of more musically oriented things :-)

https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/classic-club/boulez-intime-33197

Strange the contrasts between Boulez the liberal easy going soft touch of an uncle who liked a laugh in his private life, Boulez the tough guy in his work life, and Boulez the person who allegedly said that he would if he could live like a monk in a cell (I bet he said that when he was drunk after a hard day of imposing his ego at work.) Pierre Chevalier comes across as a nice chap.

[Karl Henning]

I'll leave that direct attempt at a personal insult aside for the moment

You mustn't feel insulted by James.  If a day goes by when he hasn't made an assertion which implies that he knows everything, and that anyone who disagrees with him is ignorant, he thinks it a day wasted.  He might be a bot.

[James]

A Great Willful Conductor

Certainly a more successful conductor than composer. He knew it too, and it's the reason he spent more time on that. Had he just tried surviving on his ability to compose, 'he' would have faded into obscurity (much like his own music). Overall, a minor figure in the grand scheme of things and by and large a failed composer. To be real about things.

[Mahlerian]

How dry is 'Pli Selon Pli' compared to the driest Stravinsky?

Not at all.  It's quite a passionate piece, and very lush in timbre.  The bon mot attributed to Stravinsky about it being monotonously pretty and pretty monotonous probably was really from Craft, though.

[Karl Henning]

It's probably no accident that the Haydn Thread is right below this one right now.

There are no accidents . . . only varying degrees of intent . . . .