Pierre Boulez (1925-2016)

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I'd love to have all of your input on this new thread:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29549.0.html

[Mandryka]

Are there other works of his that sound more approachable?

Messagesquisse; Derive 1, memoriale, sonatine, notations, the revised Livre de cordes if you can find it, possibly répons.

[Symphonic Addict]

Messagesquisse; Derive 1, memoriale, sonatine, notations, the revised Livre de cordes if you can find it, possibly répons.

Thanks Mandryka. Will investigate.

[Mirror Image]

Thanks Mandryka. Will investigate.

You should definitely listen to Incises and Sur Incises and play them back-to-back. Quite fascinating experience.

[Mirror Image]

Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -

Boulez
Le Marteau sans maître
Hilary Summers, contralto
Boulez
Ensemble InterContemporain



Hilary Summers




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Le Marteau sans maître is a nine-part cycle, composed for contralto and six instrumentalists. Each of the parts is scored differently; four are for voice and changing instruments, while five are purely instrumental. On the one hand, the five instrumental pieces are organised in a prelude and postlude to the first vocal piece and, on the other, in three commentaries on the third vocal piece.

However, cohesive vocal and instrumental parts do not follow one another directly; they are woven throughout the entire piece like a web. The words of the second poem appear in two musical versions (Nos. V and IX). Comparison of the two versions makes the difference in handling the singing voice very clear: one the one hand, cantabile-melismatic, then syllabic voice leading combined with the melodic instruments alto flute, guitar, viola and, on the other, Sprechgesang with predominantly percussion accompaniment and wordless, quasi instrumental singing.

[From Universal Edition]

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This work has echoes of Debussy's work for reciter and ensemble, Les Chansons de Bilitis. It's as if this work from Boulez was the logical extension of the afore mentioned Debussy work. Quite an intriguing sound-world. The flute work is most obviously Debussyan and what called this composer immediately to mind.

[Mirror Image]

I was reading through some Hurwitz's 'reviews' of Boulez's different recordings on DG and I couldn't help but laugh. It's clear he doesn't like Boulez, but seems to relish any opportunity he can to lash out at his thoughtless and narrow-minded statements. One of the things that I found most telling was this comment in regards to the Complete set on DG: "Thirteen discs of this stuff is torture--27 works that graphically illuminate the utter failure of the post-War avant-garde. It will be interesting to see if anyone cares about Boulez when he's not around to promote himself." I can't see the rest of the comment as you have to have a subscription to do any further reading in this particular 'review' but with comments like that, I'd never give Hurwitz a dime of my money. Post-WWII avant-garde a failure? I think not --- look no further to than composers like Dusapin, Neuwirth, Chin, Adès, Haas, Takemitsu, Eötvös, Benjamin, Grisey, Dufourt, etc. I think what really happened was Boulez met Hurwitz one time and Hurwitz didn't enjoy the encounter, so he took it to heart and couldn't wait to trash him. Of course, there's also the fact that he just doesn't like the music and that's fine, but I think he should spend his energies listening to music he enjoys (I'd wager he hasn't heard all of Boulez's oeuvre anyway).

[Mirror Image]

The reality about Boulez's music, for me, is I'm actually finding a lot of his music quite approachable and enjoyable...yes, I said enjoyable. I have always been a listener that has been interested in harmony, rhythm, color and texture in music --- not necessarily melody, because I think a melody can be found within a series of harmonic progressions, but I don't listen to Boulez for melodic content even though there's, surprisingly enough, more melody than one could imagine. You just have to dig a bit deeper into texture to find it and this could be a matter of even going back to a particular phrase to hear it again. So far, I find Boulez at his best with a small ensemble but I did enjoy some of the solo piano works like Incises, Notations, and the 1st Piano Sonata.

[vers la flamme]

The reality about Boulez's music, for me, is I'm actually finding a lot of his music quite approachable and enjoyable...yes, I said enjoyable. I have always been a listener that has been interested in harmony, rhythm, color and texture in music --- not necessarily melody, because I think a melody can be found within a series of harmonic progressions, but I don't listen to Boulez for melodic content even though there's, surprisingly enough, more melody than one could imagine. You just have to dig a bit deeper into texture to find it and this could be a matter of even going back to a particular phrase to hear it again. So far, I find Boulez at his best with a small ensemble but I did enjoy some of the solo piano works like Incises, Notations, and the 1st Piano Sonata.

I see you're beginning to realize that Boulez is much more approachable than people give him credit for. I would call him one of the easier composers to love of the postwar avant-garde. His music is great. Some of his works, Pli selon pli and Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works, like staring down a chasm into a fractal that goes on forever, and then jumping into it and falling at an extreme speed. His music was a big discovery for me. He is easily one of the 5 greatest French composers of the 20th century (and of course, he worked well into the 21st).

[Mirror Image]

I see you're beginning to realize that Boulez is much more approachable than people give him credit for. I would call him one of the easier composers to love of the postwar avant-garde. His music is great. Some of his works, Pli selon pli and Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works, like staring down a chasm into a fractal that goes on forever, and then jumping into it and falling at an extreme speed. His music was a big discovery for me. He is easily one of the 5 greatest French composers of the 20th century (and of course, he worked well into the 21st).

I think it's important to keep in mind when approaching any new music is one's own perception of the music not someone else's. And what I mean by this is it's quite easy to get caught up on the 'I Hate Boulez And The Avant-Garde' bandwagon when you have this critic or that musician telling you how bad it is, but what it boils down to is what do you hear in the music. This is why I believe Boulez will be a composer that will continue to be discovered not only by other composers working today, but by listeners. His coloristic approach to music will continue to slip into the ears and minds of the listeners. What sounds foreign to one now won't sound that way once you've heard enough of the music and not just his music but even going further back with Debussy or the Second Viennese School. People just have to be receptive to the music and what's actually interesting about all of this is I find Boulez much more approachable than a composer like Ferneyhough or Carter, although I don't completely dislike Carter's music, but he's just a composer whose aesthetic doesn't really do much for me. Anyway, I look forward to exploring more of Boulez's music down the road.

[petrarch]

Hurwitz's 'reviews' (...) "Thirteen discs of this stuff is torture"

Thirteen discs of ecstatic joy. I love that box!

Some of his works, Pli selon pli and Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works

Curiously, I never really warmed up to Répons, not even live (though I would not hesitate in going again), unlike, say ...explosante-fixe... or Marteau.

Now Pli salon pli is a totally different matter... For some reason, ever since I listened to the 1981 recording on Erato, my first serious exposure to Boulez some 30 years ago, I fell under its spell, right from that opening chord and the solitary line sung by the soprano in Don. To me it is Boulez at his most consummate--the larger forces when compared to Marteau (and I generally prefer chamber music due to its greater clarity and timbral refinement), the variety (and concision!) which I have never found in Répons, despite being longer by about half, are distinguishing characteristics that make me rank it just a little bit higher than the rest of his works.

[Mirror Image]

Thirteen discs of ecstatic joy. I love that box!

Curiously, I never really warmed up to Répons, not even live (though I would not hesitate in going again), unlike, say ...explosante-fixe... or Marteau.

Now Pli salon pli is a totally different matter... For some reason, ever since I listened to the 1981 recording on Erato, my first serious exposure to Boulez some 30 years ago, I fell under its spell, right from that opening chord and the solitary line sung by the soprano in Don. To me it is Boulez at his most consummate--the larger forces when compared to Marteau (and I generally prefer chamber music due to its greater clarity and timbral refinement), the variety (and concision!) which I have never found in Répons, despite being longer by about half, are distinguishing characteristics that make me rank it just a little bit higher than the rest of his works.

Interesting, Petrarch. Quite looking forward to hearing Pli selon pli now given how much it has meant to you.

[Mandryka]

I think it's important to keep in mind when approaching any new music is one's own perception of the music not someone else's. And what I mean by this is it's quite easy to get caught up on the 'I Hate Boulez And The Avant-Garde' bandwagon when you have this critic or that musician telling you how bad it is, but what it boils down to is what do you hear in the music. This is why I believe Boulez will be a composer that will continue to be discovered not only by other composers working today, but by listeners. His coloristic approach to music will continue to slip into the ears and minds of the listeners. What sounds foreign to one now won't sound that way once you've heard enough of the music and not just his music but even going further back with Debussy or the Second Viennese School. People just have to be receptive to the music and what's actually interesting about all of this is I find Boulez much more approachable than a composer like Ferneyhough or Carter, although I don't completely dislike Carter's music, but he's just a composer whose aesthetic doesn't really do much for me. Anyway, I look forward to exploring more of Boulez's music down the road.

You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.

[Mirror Image]

You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.

There's definitely some truth in that. He experimented with many different compositional styles, but, as you know, I'm still just getting into his music.

[Iota]

One of the things I've been listening to recently is an example of this - the orchestrations he made of Notations. Gielen recorded them ... it's so sensual, so full of catchy themes and and foot tapping rhythms, it's almost decadent! The orchestrated notations have something in common with Richard Strauss!

Agreed, 'sensual' and 'decadent' definitely fit the bill for Notations. And yes you're right Straussian, though however freely Strauss' music soars at times it never feels quite as unanchored as this to me.

A contained insanity? Hmmm...I like it! I should use this phrase on a bumper sticker.

A bumper year for Boulez, excellent! Roulez Boulez!

I would say that these three works [Sur Incises, Eclat, Repons] would be a good entry point to Boulez for a newbie.

I Agree. What first attracted me to Boulez' music was what I perceived as a Kandinsky-like quality I found in it, and Eclat for example, with all its transparency and colour and even perhaps a whiff of humour at the end, is a good example of that.

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I Agree. What first attracted me to Boulez' music was what I perceived as a Kandinsky-like quality I found in it, and Eclat for example, with all its transparency and colour and even perhaps a whiff of humour at the end, is a good example of that.

But what's remarkable is how much organization there actually is in the music and how each note is so well considered. Kardinsky-like quality, yes, to some degree, but I look at Boulez much like Webern --- there's perfection in the tiniest detail.

[ritter]

"Organaized delirium" was the composer's pharse...

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"Organaized delirium" was the composer's pharse...

I think this would make an even better bumper sticker.

[Mandryka]

You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.

It was a silly thing to have said because the man was always thinking of new things about music, exploring new ideas. I think part of the reason I said it wasn't avant garde is that it's so accessible -- it's not like listening to Milton Babbitt or Richard Barrett.  But that just compounds stupidity with stupidity.

I've come to realise that most of Boulez post 1970 is not for me now. It's often too thrilling, too intensely exciting, too sensual and colourful sounding, often too large scale. There are exceptions, like the revised livre de cordes. It's mostly, not what I want from music at the moment.

[Mirror Image]

It was a silly thing to have said because the man was always thinking of new things about music, exploring new ideas. I think part of the reason I said it wasn't avant garde is that it's so accessible -- it's not like listening to Milton Babbitt or Richard Barrett.  But that just compounds stupidity with stupidity.

I've come to realise that most of Boulez post 1970 is not for me now. It's often too thrilling, too intensely exciting, too sensual and colourful sounding, often too large scale. There are exceptions, like the revised livre de cordes. It's mostly, not what I want from music at the moment.

There's plenty of avant-garde music that is accessible look at the commercial success of composers like Ligeti and Penderecki for example. Even if you isolated the music from the films their music was used in, it's still much easier to digest then you'd initially think.

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What does everyone think of this documentary?



Well, I already bought it. Looking forward to it even if it is mostly 'fluff'.