A different cut on beginners' classical music

[Teresa]

Mike here is a kinda slow version of Jack End's Blues for a Killed Kat from You Tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDaapfJKQY4&feature=related

A faster musically superior version is from Reference Recordings "Beachcomber" - Frederick Fennell and the Dallas Wind Symphony.

Grazioso I find that medieval and early renaissance dance music to be closer to Pop/Rock than Baroque.  But even that is not under discussion because as much as I love medieval and early renaissance dance music it is not orchestral music. 

Here are some of my favorite medieval and early renaissance dance albums:

DANSES ANCIENNES DE HONGRIE ET DE TRANSYLVANIE
Rene Clemencic, Clemencic Consort
harmonia mundi FRANCE HM 1003 LP

LA FÊTE DE LÂNE
Rene Clemencic, Clemencic Consort
harmonia mundi / Speakers Corner HM 1036LP

LA FOLIA DE LA SPAGNA
Gregorio Paniagua, Atrium Musicae de Madrid
harmonia mundi / Speakers Corner HM 1050 LP

PRAETORIUS: Terpichore: Dances WIDMANN: Dances and Galliards SCHEIN: Banchetto Musicale Three Suites
Collegium Terpsichore
Archive Production / Ampex ARC 3153
4 Track 7 1/2 IPS Open Reel

TARENTULE-TARENTELLE
Gregorio Paniagua, Atrium Musicae de Madrid
harmonia mundi / Speakers Corner HM 379 LP

VILLANCICOS: Spanish Folksongs from the 15th and 16th Centuries
Gregorio Paniagua, Atrium Musicae de Madrid
harmonia mundi / Speakers Corner HM 1025 LP

So as you can see I like early Classical Music up until about 1650, and skip 150 years and then Classical Music after 1800 with the exception of modern advent garde.  Most of the modern Classical Music I like is Neo-Classical, Neo-Romantic and Neo-Modern.   It's just the Baroque and Classical eras I don't care for, plus of course most chamber music without percussion.  Here a couple of Chamber Works I like:  http://music.download.com/twostarsymphony/3600-8281_32-100790363.html?tag=MDL_listing_song_artist,

Sforzando I love folk singing, bluegrass singing, some rock singing, some jazz singing, Mexican singing, Irish singing, just about any singing except Opera singing.

To me Opera singers sound like they are being skinned alive and are in terrible pain. And high sopranos actually cause my head to throb with their painful shrieks. I just don't get it, such godawful noise! I don't like to listen to recorded torture. Although I do like a lot of the instrumental music used in Opera's, such as orchestral suites of excerpts with NO singing!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Grazioso I find that medieval and early renaissance dance music to be closer to Pop/Rock than Baroque.  But even that is not under discussion because as much as I love medieval and early renaissance dance music it is not orchestral music. 

So what?

It's just the Baroque and Classical eras I don't care for, plus of course most chamber music without percussion.

Most chamber music does not have percussion. However, do you know the Bartok sonata for two pianos and percussion?

[Grazioso]

Grazioso I find that medieval and early renaissance dance music to be closer to Pop/Rock than Baroque.  But even that is not under discussion because as much as I love medieval and early renaissance dance music it is not orchestral music. 

It is under discussion because this isn't merely a question of your individual tastes but, as you say, "Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music". As soon as you try to guide others and not merely describe your personal opinions, you shoulder a responsibility. You falsely assume that others new to classical music will share your biases and limitations and adopt an equally blinkered approach. Any sophisticated listener or musician with genuine curiosity will want to explore the Baroque and Classical eras, chamber music, and opera.

If someone is new to rock, will you steer them away from The Beatles and Led Zeppelin and towards Britney Spears because the latter is simpler and more danceable? If someone is new to jazz, will you steer them to Kenny G and tell them that the Hot 5 sides and Ascension and E.S.P. are too complex and boring?

[(poco) Sforzando]

It is under discussion because this isn't merely a question of your individual tastes but, as you say, "Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music". As soon as you try to guide others and not merely describe your personal opinions, you shoulder a responsibility. You falsely assume that others new to classical music will share your biases and limitations and adopt an equally blinkered approach.

Bingo. That is very well put, and cuts to the heart of why some of us here are disturbed by Teresa's Technicolor approach to musical marketing. I'm sure I'm only one of many people whose early interest in classical music was shaped by exposure to the Beethoven symphonies, and I have known numerous people who have fallen passionately for opera after having attended a few performances. Had I only experienced Power Orchestral Rock, I would have missed out on a great deal of the music that matters most to me, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Teresa, however, clearly despises a great deal of the very repertoire that many people devoted to this kind of music love most passionately - opera ("torture"), chamber music ("musical hell"), the central symphonic literature - and the list of works she produces seems motivated not just by enjoyment of the works she likes, but by contempt and resentment towards a lot of the standard repertoire. That's the crucial difference between Teresa and the old-fashioned music appreciation teacher who would introduce Sheherazade and the Nutcracker Suite as a way of getting young listeners started with classical music. These people cared deeply about classical music and would go out of their way to encourage interested young listeners to pursue more challenging fare. But I sense that by producing her list of Power Orchestral Rock, Teresa's trying in part to take revenge on the whatever music appreciation teachers apparently committed the unforgivable sin of having her listen to a Brahms quintet one day or a Verdi opera, and those guys better watch out.

[Ephemerid]

You falsely assume that others new to classical music will share your biases and limitations and adopt an equally blinkered approach.

Right.  I'm teaching my girlfriend classical music-- having our own sort of "Music Appreciation 101" course & its quite thorough (its roughly in chronological order, starting with plainchant. Now we're on Bach). 

She already knows I have certain preferences & I've pointed out to her I have certain prejudices.  I'm aware of these limitations and always make sure to remind her of this because I don't want my prejudices to colour her own view of things-- not that she can't think for herself, but I want to expose her to music that even I am not really into because maybe she will like it.  And I want to treat even composers I can't really click with (like Mahler, for example) in a positive light-- my own subjective limitations shouldn't limit her own discoveries.

It wouldn't be fair to her to put MY blinkers on HER and it wouldn't be fair to all the wonderful music out there.  And who knows, I might learn something new in the process as well. 

[Florestan]

ChamberNut I am sorry that you do not like Gershwin's Cuban Overture or Ravel's Bolero.   Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way. 

Why don't you go for the real thing instead?  

My problem with your theory is not the theory as such; you are entitled to your own opinion. It's that you present it as a valid approach for newcomers thus misleading them into believing classical music is all about instant gratification.

[ChamberNut]

You falsely assume that others new to classical music will share your biases and limitations and adopt an equally blinkered approach.

Teresa,

This is really it in a nutshell. 

I'm only 3 years into my interest in classical music, and I do not share the same biases and limitations you do.  Many (or most) of the works and masterpieces you shun as being dull or boring are the same works that drew me into classical music and made me a fan for life. 

[Harry]

Quote from: Teresa on February 24, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way.


Really?
Cool
Like to compare notes on this Teresa.
Just PM me.

[PerfectWagnerite]

The list looks like one of those boxes you can get for $5 with 10 or 20 cds at your local Circuit City. You can't have Wellington's Victory  Op. 91 (1813) on the list and ask to be taken seriously. BTW where is Bruckner  on the list?

[greg]

BTW where is Bruckner  on the list?

I think Ubloobideega ate him off.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Right.  I'm teaching my girlfriend classical music-- having our own sort of "Music Appreciation 101" course & its quite thorough (its roughly in chronological order, starting with plainchant. Now we're on Bach). 

She already knows I have certain preferences & I've pointed out to her I have certain prejudices.  I'm aware of these limitations and always make sure to remind her of this because I don't want my prejudices to colour her own view of things-- not that she can't think for herself, but I want to expose her to music that even I am not really into because maybe she will like it.  And I want to treat even composers I can't really click with (like Mahler, for example) in a positive light-- my own subjective limitations shouldn't limit her own discoveries.

It wouldn't be fair to her to put MY blinkers on HER and it wouldn't be fair to all the wonderful music out there.  And who knows, I might learn something new in the process as well. 

A far cry from Teresa, and a most welcome one.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Teresa (thinking we'll be impressed if she plays the Porn Card): Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way. 

Florestan: Why don't you go for the real thing instead?  

Well, apparently she is, but this is old hat. Bo Derek had the same idea 30 years ago when she starred alongside Dudley Moore in 10. No doubt if Teresa had her way, we'd see an audience of old guys sitting through Bolero at its next performance by the Chicago Symphony, all with handkerchiefs covering their crotches. C'mon Teresa, if you're going to treat classical music as porn, at least be more original.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Quote from: Teresa on February 24, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way.


Really?
Cool
Like to compare notes on this Teresa.
Just PM me.

Oh, why not do it publicly, Harry? If Teresa can let it all hang out on the board, why not you too?

[Topaz]

... ChamberNut I am sorry that you do not like Gershwin's Cuban Overture or Ravel's Bolero.   Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way.  It is one giant powerful crescendo. 

Well, have you Chambernut?  Come on, let's have the truth.

[ChamberNut]

Well, have you Chambernut?  Come on, let's have the truth.

I think Teresa faked it.

[Topaz]

I think Teresa faked it.

Oh yes, Ohh yesss, OH YESSSS

or, as Saul might say:  Oh G-D, Ohh G-D-D, Oooha  G-O-Odddddddddddd

[(poco) Sforzando]

Oh yes, Ohh yesss, OH YESSSS

or, as Saul might say:  Oh G-D, Ohh G-D-D, Oooha  G-O-Odddddddddddd

I think you mean, Oooha G-G-G---dddddddddddddddddd!!!

[greg]

I think you mean, Oooha G-G-G---dddddddddddddddddd!!!

or Ohhhhhhh G------------------ddddddd!

[(poco) Sforzando]

or Ohhhhhhh G------------------ddddddd!

No doubt someone here speaks from experience.

[Teresa]

Sforzando I had the Bartok sonata for two pianos and percussion back in 1973 and yes I will admit it is exciting, there is also a version for 2 Pianos, percussion and orchestra which I hope someday to try.  Also as I have said before there are enough classical works and styles out there to make everyone happy.  Why does it bother you that there are people who do not like chamber music or opera?

Grazioso The list under discussion is "The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music" and I had to leave out orchestral music and non-orchestral music that is in my article "Classical Music for Everyone" as the pieces did not fit the criteria I set down.    If a piece is not Power Orchestral music it does not belong on the list.   This list for people hate the "normal" classical music they are exposed to, you still are not understanding that?  This list is not for you as you already like Classical music.

Ii is quite possible for someone to love rock and not like The Beatles or Led Zeppelin.  I love rock and hate the early Beatles, I also dislike most Led Zeppelin and all Britney Spears.  So what?  In Jazz I love Duke Ellington and dislike John Coltrane.  So what?  I am still allowed to love Rock and I am still allowed to love Jazz.  And dammit I reserve the right to love Classical music as well.

Why don't you go for the real thing instead?  

My problem with your theory is not the theory as such; you are entitled to your own opinion. It's that you present it as a valid approach for newcomers thus misleading them into believing classical music is all about instant gratification.

The list is for people who think they hate classical music plus we live in the computer age so they can listen to the streaming audio themselves to check the music out.  Quote from the list "Unlike other lists there are no "must haves" here as not everyone likes the same music.  These are recommendations for listening and thanks to the Internet you can listen to streaming audio before deciding to add music to your collection. "

ChamberNut I have been listening to Classical Music for 26 years and it has had a lot of ups and downs.  We like different things in Classical Music.  This does not bother me why it bothers you I do not know.   "The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music" is a tool to reach out to listeners who have rejected traditional Classical music because they hate it.  This list is not for you.  Classical music is still a small minority in the United States and I believe it could be almost as popular as rap with the right exposure because there is something for everyone. 

PerfectWagner have you every heard a great performance of "Wellington's Victory" such as Dorati's on Mercury Living Presence or Kunzel's on Telarc?  BTW Wellington's Victory was the most popular of Beethoven's works when he was alive and the one that made him the most money, his Symphony No. 7 was his second biggest money maker.

GGGGRRREEG Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 was mentioned in "Classical Music for Everyone" The "Scherzo" from Bruckner's 9th Symphony can get the bodies juices flowing every bit as "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zeppelin, both works induce "goose-bumps" to the max!

Lastly The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music is an alternative to the standard Repertoire with suggestions of works that one may like if they dislike the standard repertoire.  Why this is so hard for some of you to understand I do not know?  But remember this if it was not for Emerson, Lake and Palmer's versions Pictures At An Exhibition, Hoedown from Rodeo, etc.  I would have NEVER discovered classical music on my own.  And there are no new Art Rock groups promoting exciting Classical music that people without classical training can enjoy so thus the need for my list.

It is OK to like what I do not like and I reserve the right to like what you do not.  If we all adopt this attitude Classical music would be the most popular type of music or maybe you all want to keep it elitist?