Technical CD / MP3 Gapless playback question

[Daedalus]

Hello,

I hope this is the right place to post this question. I am having an absolute nightmare with copying CDs and gapless playback. I want to make a set of CDs for someone in my family as a kind of taster of a few different things, however I cannot seem to get the gaps between tracks how I want them to be.

The first piece of music I am trying to copy is supposed to be gapless, i.e. the music carries on as the track on the CD changes (the tracks run together). However, when I copy this to CD, I get a sort of 'click' sound between tracks, as though there is a tiny gap of half a second or something. This happens despite the fact that I have instructed the software to copy the CD without gaps between tracks.

I am using Real Player, copying each CD into MP3 format, and then copying to a new CD-R with the 'gap between tracks' option set to 0 seconds.

Can anyone help me with this problem as it is driving me crazy! I have searched google but I don't understand what on earth half of the audiophile / computer experts are talking about. Can anyone manage to explain how to do it to me in a version with big pictures and tiny words? 

Grateful in advance for any help,
D.

[Mark]

I'm not officially posting at this forum for the time being, but your cry for help has made me break cover.

Do the following:

1) Google for a free piece of software called 'Exact Audio Copy'

2) Download and install it, then follow the on-screen set-up instructions

3) Run the program, insert a CD into your PC, then when the tracks appear in the program window, hit Shift+F7

4) Use the top slider to select the start of the track you want - click 'Snap track'

5) Use the bottom slider to select the last track you want - click 'Snap track'

6) Click 'Ok', choose a destination on your PC, and away you go.

What happens is that the two or more tracks are joined together as one, which is the only way to avoid gaps with MP3 technology, owing to lots of complex and dull reasons you really don't need to understand.

Good luck.

[Que]

 A Mark sighting!   

You could also use iTunes to rip and play back CD's - plays gapless even without joining tracks, which is also possible btw (when importing/ripping).

Q

[drogulus]

      iTunes will play gaplessly even if the tracks were ripped with another program. Its the player which either adds a gap or doesn't. So play back using a program that allows for gapless, like iTunes or Winamp, or play back on a gapless mp3 player (currently, the iPod). It isn't necessary to join tracks, though I sometimes do this when there are many tracks comprising a single movement.

      The reason this way of doing it is better is that you only want to eliminate the unwanted added gaps while keeping gaps that are supposed to be there. Some techniques will just remove intertrack silence thereby rendering tracks continuous even when they aren't supposed to be. It sounds like you want what I want, just the gaps that are supposed to be there, the way they are on the CD.

      I think you may have a problem with your burning program. Try Exact Audio Copy, iTunes, or the burner in Winamp (I mostly use Easy CD-DA Extractor, but I paid for it.). You should be able to get the gaps right without joining tracks.

[Daedalus]

Mark - your simple idiot's guide was absolutely perfect. Thank you for breaking your vow of GMG silence to help - it is very much appreciated 

Thank you for all other replies as well!

D.

[Daedalus]

I have downloaded the Exact Audio Copy software and it works a treat, however I now have another problem. I hope you will forgive another silly question - is there anyway of achieving a gapless copy without ripping the CD, i.e. from a set of mp3 files? I only ask because I have just discovered that one of the CDs I was hoping to copy has a huge scratch which is stopping some of the tracks from being ripped by the computer. This seems to be typical of my luck with technology! However, I do have a MP3 copy of this CD on my computer so I am hoping I can replicate the CD from that. Thus, I return to the problem of the gaps!

Once again, grateful for any suggestions.

D.

[drogulus]

I have downloaded the Exact Audio Copy software and it works a treat, however I now have another problem. I hope you will forgive another silly question - is there anyway of achieving a gapless copy without ripping the CD, i.e. from a set of mp3 files? I only ask because I have just discovered that one of the CDs I was hoping to copy has a huge scratch which is stopping some of the tracks from being ripped by the computer. This seems to be typical of my luck with technology! However, I do have a MP3 copy of this CD on my computer so I am hoping I can replicate the CD from that. Thus, I return to the problem of the gaps!

Once again, grateful for any suggestions.

D.

    Yes, you can make an mp3 CD or a regular CD for players that don't decode mp3s. I would do the latter.

[Mark]

Mark - your simple idiot's guide was absolutely perfect. Thank you for breaking your vow of GMG silence to help - it is very much appreciated  :DD.

You're welcome.

However, I do have a MP3 copy of this CD on my computer so I am hoping I can replicate the CD from that. Thus, I return to the problem of the gaps!

Sadly, that's impossible (or at least, extremely difficult to achieve near-perfectly without a good degree of technical understanding). It all has to do with the way MP3 technology works, and the limitations thereof. I'd suggest simply buying a new CD if you can.

[Morigan]

Well I suppose if you were really determined you could seam the files together using a sound editor and then burn them as one single long file... there would be no gaps, but it would only be one track.

[Daedalus]

Figaro - that sounds rather tricky to me. I do have a copy of Audacity though, which I presume I could use to achieve this. Perhaps it might just be a simple case of copying and pasting the tracks together and deleting the gaps. I might have a go at this when I have a spare hour or so - it sounds a bit technical for me 

Mark - does this mean that ripping my music to MP3 is not necessarily the best way to store my music electronically? Are there any advantages, in this respect, to using WMA or any of the other types of file (esp. in terms of gapless playback)? I have selected MP3 merely because it is so ubiquitous - I presumed it was the best file type.

Cheers for all replies.
D.

[Mark]

Mark - does this mean that ripping my music to MP3 is not necessarily the best way to store my music electronically? Are there any advantages, in this respect, to using WMA or any of the other types of file (esp. in terms of gapless playback)? I have selected MP3 merely because it is so ubiquitous - I presumed it was the best file type.

MP3's universality certainly makes it popular, but it's not the best format for future-proofing your collection. You need a lossless format (many use Apple or WMA Lossless, but I'd urge you to experiment with FLAC), which will result in larger file sizes, but no loss of information (and in the case of FLAC, no gaps where they shouldn't be, IIRC). Google around for relevant information.

[Daedalus]

Mark - Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. It strikes me that there ought to be a 'stickied' thread about these kinds of technical issues to help those poor anachronistic technophobes such as myself! Perhaps this will be a little project for someone on the forum in the future (hinty hint hint  ) Perhaps I am pushing my luck 

Unfortunately, I have now backed up a great deal of my collection using windows media player, ripping to MP3 files at the highest bit rate allowed (320 I believe). Could you tell me, will I lose a certain level of quality using these settings? I have to be completely honest and say that I have not really noticed much difference between CD quality and MP3 at the highest bit rate.

I am just wondering if I should start backing everything up again from the beginning using a different file type! What a nighmare!

D.

[KevinP]

Take a look at this. It will address your questions and either answer them or point you to a site that can.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=97676&;

[Ephemerid]

Unfortunately, I have now backed up a great deal of my collection using windows media player, ripping to MP3 files at the highest bit rate allowed (320 I believe). Could you tell me, will I lose a certain level of quality using these settings? I have to be completely honest and say that I have not really noticed much difference between CD quality and MP3 at the highest bit rate.

I think at the highest bitrate you are safe (yeah, 320 kbps).  The problem is the more you edit and save & re-save your files in Audacity, there will be some very minor degradation (that awful "pixellating" sound as I call it-- especially in the higher frequencies).  I've listened very closely to files like that with good headphones & with just one re-saving of the .mp3 at 320, I don't think its noticable to the human ear, so you shouldn't have any worries-- just don't save & re-save the same file more than once & keep it at 320. 

But I HATE doing that in Audacity-- its a real pain & I find Audacity sometimes crashes.  I use Goldwave, but I paid $50.  The best $50 I've ever spent though!  But damn it is tedious work...

[Daedalus]

Thanks for the replies guys - I shall certainly head towards the web address you've stated KevinP.

Many thanks to you all.

[Gurn Blanston]

...I do have a copy of Audacity though, which I presume I could use to achieve this. Perhaps it might just be a simple case of copying and pasting the tracks together and deleting the gaps. I might have a go at this when I have a spare hour or so - it sounds a bit technical for me...

I have used this method often and it works well. I don't do it quite that way though, I rip to WAV instead and then I edit the gaps or applause in the WAV file. Then I encode the resulting WAV to the highest MP3 VBR setting and delete the WAV. VBR gives a better, smaller file than CBR. The resulting file is excellent. It is not really technical at all, it's easy as can be. Hell, even I can do it!

[drogulus]

     I just took a set of mp3s from a gapless album and burned them to CD using iTunes, with the gaps set to zero. The result was a perfect gapless CD. It matters which program you use to create the mp3s, as well as the burning program. I think it might be easier to rip to .wma or .flac if you don't want to have these problems. The mp3s need to have the right delay and padding info embedded. LAME encoders do this, so use a program that uses LAME (many do). Or just use FLAC or WMA lossless.

     One more thing: The gapless CD I just created will only play gaplessly with a program that allows for gapless playback, like iTunes or Winamp (properly set up). The good news is my Sony DVD/SACD player plays it gaplessly, so it should be good for any CD player.

[gomro]

Well I suppose if you were really determined you could seam the files together using a sound editor and then burn them as one single long file... there would be no gaps, but it would only be one track.

I use Audacity software and do exactly what you described, as my cheap Mp3 player inserts gaps between tracks no matter what.