Langgaard's Lyre

[karlhenning]

Indeed, our Colin is a chap of many virtues!

[Dundonnell]

Oh, hello!........I am being talked about it seems

I am tempted to list my entire collection of Langgaard symphonies and my substantial collection of the music of Fred. Delius.....but I won't because you will just say that (since I am a 'mad completist') that proves nothing at all about my musical taste

Taste will be, to some extent at least, a reflection of temperament. I very much doubt if I shall ever take to Delius-there is not enough 'sinew and bone' in the music. I get easily bored by inactivity. I cannot lie back on a little boat lazily drifting down a river or stretch out on a chair in a garden and snooze to the sound of the bees and the smell of the flowers.

Langgaard stands more chance with me. But there is a sense of sheer over-indulgence in romantic excess which I find off-putting. However...I am determined to give him another go. I shall not give up on old Rued(even if he was sooooo rude to my beloved Carl Nielsen )

And......thank you for your exceptionally kind words, my friends

[karlhenning]

Langgaard stands more chance with me. But there is a sense of sheer over-indulgence in romantic excess which I find off-putting. However...I am determined to give him another go. I shall not give up on old Rued(even if he was sooooo rude to my beloved Carl Nielsen )

Much as I love Nielsen, I cannot much hold that against Langgaard . . . so much in life goes amiss.

Put like that, 'by the letter', Colin, and I probably shouldn't much like Langgaard, either.  Somehow, rich & Romantified though it is, the music has a profile and texture that grab me.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Taste will be, to some extent at least, a reflection of temperament. I very much doubt if I shall ever take to Delius-there is not enough 'sinew and bone' in the music. I get easily bored by inactivity. I cannot lie back on a little boat lazily drifting down a river or stretch out on a chair in a garden and snooze to the sound of the bees and the smell of the flowers.

Langgaard stands more chance with me. But there is a sense of sheer over-indulgence in romantic excess which I find off-putting. However...I am determined to give him another go. I shall not give up on old Rued(even if he was sooooo rude to my beloved Carl Nielsen )

And......thank you for your exceptionally kind words, my friends

Enjoy them while you can, Colin, because now I am taking you to task... That Delius lacks 'sinew and bone' is a cliché. He isn't always lazily enjoying Nature, partaking of wine or hymning the fairer sex... Listen to the Requiem, or the Songs of Farewell. I know you have them - for the former, take the Meredith Davies, for the latter Sargent. Both works are extremely inspired, no note is wasted, they have the beauty and the hardness of diamonds. Whenever I listen to the Songs of Farewell I can hardly believe what I'm hearing, those harmonies transfix me. Of course, every person reacts differently. But there is real power and real passion there, and no emasculation.

If you'll give old rude Rued a try: the 4th, the 6th, the 9th, the 10th and the 16th are all quite 'disciplined'. But that's my view, of course...

[Dundonnell]

I shall obey your command

[Lethevich]

Yay, perfect description - thanks, Jezetha. He is starting to sound almost Lisztian in the potential structural difficulties. And I like Liszt's tone poems a lot... 0:)

I must admit, Brian is a composer that I would not be surprised if I still do not fully "get" for the next decade or two. I've put a lot into listening to him over the past five years or so, but it's been difficult to say the least. Even Xenakis came more easily. But there is so much there that the music demands that I keep listening - and he is always rewarding to do that with, even if a full understanding remains elusive.

Langgaard, on the other hand - with a sympathetic ear - sounds potentially a lot easier to enjoy, regardless of whether there is as much to have to "understand" embedded in the music or not (from the opinion of even a big fan like Jezetha - probably not). I have been directed towards some digital copies of the Stupel recordings, so if I enjoy these, I will splash out on the Dausgaard box - it should be fun to compare the recordings side to side.

Edit: It is proving fun to translate the Danish titles and movements into logical sounding phrases. The Danacord recordings are slightly autistically translated - Løvfald to Leaf-Fall, for example, despite no phrase of that nature existing in English. Aside from this fun, Danacord and Dacapo offer two contradictory translations for the title of No.13 - 'Faithlessness' and 'Belief in Wonders' respectively. Which is considered the more ideal?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yay, perfect description - thanks, Jezetha. He is starting to sound almost Lisztian in the potential structural difficulties. And I like Liszt's tone poems a lot... 0:)

I must admit, Brian is a composer that I would not be surprised if I still do not fully "get" for the next decade or two. I've put a lot into listening to him over the past five years or so, but it's been difficult to say the least. Even Xenakis came more easily. But there is so much there that the music demands that I keep listening - and he is always rewarding to do that with, even if a full understanding remains elusive.

Langgaard, on the other hand - with a sympathetic ear - sounds potentially a lot easier to enjoy, regardless of whether there is as much to have to "understand" embedded in the music or not (from the opinion of even a big fan like Jezetha - probably not). I have been directed towards some digital copies of the Stupel recordings, so if I enjoy these, I will splash out on the Dausgaard box - it should be fun to compare the recordings side to side.

Edit: It is proving fun to translate the Danish titles and movements into logical sounding phrases. The Danacord recordings are slightly autistically translated - Løvfald to Leaf-Fall, for example, despite no phrase of that nature existing in English. Aside from this fun, Danacord and Dacapo offer two contradictory translations for the title of No.13 - 'Faithlessness' and 'Belief in Wonders' respectively. Which is considered the more ideal?

Nice post, Lethe, and thanks for the compliment. I sympathise with your Brianic difficulties. Because it's so long ago, I have almost forgotten how impenetrable some of Brian's later symphonies initially sounded. I had to work very hard to break their crusty exterior. My description of No. 21, for instance, was 'a slab of concrete'. When I listen to it now, I encounter no problem whatsoever. I can even whistle or sing along with the music... So - persevere and you will be rewarded.

Re Langgaard - he is the 'easier' composer of the two, structurally and stylistically. That title of No. 13, "Undertro", I have also seen translated as 'Superstition'...

[Lethevich]

Having heard the first and tenth symphonies, I must say that I do agree with the MusicWeb reviewer who astutely compared Langgaard's cycle to the village of Portmeirion in Wales. A picture should be enough to reveal why



Considering the age of the composer at the time of writing, the first symphony is astoundingly masterful. Almost worth trying to argue it as a minor masterpiece, but it would perhaps be futile to do so anyway. To compare to other symphonies of this nature that I have recently heard, it is far less intense or richly concentrated than the Alpine Symphony, less explicitily national than Zweers' third, but more conventionally symphonic than both - the Alpine Symphony resembling a tone poem, and the Zweers resembling a set of them (along the lines of Má Vlast). It doesn't compare at all to Brian's 1st, as it lacks that works all-encompassing Mahlerian metaphysical intent. Another pleasant surprise is it not sounding like a carbon copy of one or two other composers. The influences have been merged perfectly, and as a result sounds like a fully personal statement, rather than an essay in the style of a master composer. Sometimes the facade does drop slightly, and I find the fourth movement sounding overly familiar, perhaps with little traces of Tchaikovsky and Mahler showing through the paintwork...

Structurally it hangs together surprisingly well, and it has a melodic richness which successfully avoids accusations of note-spinning, and the restraint in the decision to seperate the large first and final movements with three smaller central ones does wonders for its contrast, and also keeps the mind from wandering in what could've become an over the top series of attempts to out-do the previous movement (which I felt was a problem with the Zweers - all movements of a massive size). The orchestration is the most staggering aspect of it, as I don't think that it could be improved upon at all - this is what elevates this symphony from a fine curiosity to a real contender. I've used words to the effect of "surprise(d)" multiple times already, and that is my key feeling from hearing this. Surprised that it isn't bad -- rather fine, even. And most of all surprised that I am going to relisten to it some time in the near future. That is a key difference between "interesting" and "good" music A super successful first!

No.10 is almost funny in how different it is and I feel more at home here. Formally it is very strong, and its mood is also exceptionally controlled. It has a perfect arc in the way Pettersson is able to pull off with his one movement works, and I can see myself playing this a lot. Superb atmosphere coupled to some intriguing writing. Fully tonal, but far less conventionally Romantic than the 1st.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Excellent, Sarah.

Yes, that First is quite miraculous in its maturity. The second movement (Mountain Flora) is one of my all-time Langgaard favourites (it seems to presage Bernard Herrmann (Psycho)).

The Tenth is quite inexhaustible. I have listened to it many times, and it always seems bigger and longer than it actually is in duration.

(Btw, listening to Delius songs. Wine Roses... ah!)

[Dundonnell]

I notice that Langgaard has been expelled completely from the latest edition(2009) of the Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music.
Not a single cd of his music is included.

This is another example of Robert Layton's dislikes in action. Layton is one of the 4 editors of the Guide. Layton is an expert on Scandinavian music and there are many composers from that part of the world for whom he has huge respect and has done a lot of good work in bringing these composers to the attention of the public. He was an early admirer of Tubin, for example. Allan Pettersson and Rued Langgaard are not however amongst those composers.

Let me say quite clearly that I think that this is a mistake. To a considerable extent an editor will be drawn to include those composers he admires in such a guide but he should be cautious about the exclusion of those others.

[karlhenning]

I notice that Langgaard has been expelled completely from the latest edition(2009) of the Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music.  Not a single cd of his music is included.

This is another example of Robert Layton's dislikes in action.

Ouch!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I notice that Langgaard has been expelled completely from the latest edition(2009) of the Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music.
Not a single cd of his music is included.

This is another example of Robert Layton's dislikes in action. Layton is one of the 4 editors of the Guide. Layton is an expert on Scandinavian music and there are many composers from that part of the world for whom he has huge respect and has done a lot of good work in bringing these composers to the attention of the public. He was an early admirer of Tubin, for example. Allan Pettersson and Rued Langgaard are not however amongst those composers.

Let me say quite clearly that I think that this is a mistake. To a considerable extent an editor will be drawn to include those composers he admires in such a guide but he should be cautious about the exclusion of those others.

I agree. I have great respect for Robert Layton, but this is more than disappointing. Langgaard should certainly have been included, if only for his Music of the Spheres, one of the most visionary pieces in 20th century music.

[vandermolen]

I agree. I have great respect for Robert Layton, but this is more than disappointing. Langgaard should certainly have been included, if only for his Music of the Spheres, one of the most visionary pieces in 20th century music.

Me too. Robert Layton also wrote the notes for the Lyrita CD containing Rubbra's Third and Fourth Symphony. I remember having a letter printed in Gramophone or IRR in which I disagreed with his assessment that the Fourth Symphony bears no relation to the times of its composition (World War Two) - I pointed out that I agreed with the Radio 3 announcer, who having played the Symphony suggested that the end spoke of 'blood, toil,tears and sweat' - which rang more true to me. As for Layton's criticism for the great Allan Pettersson for indulging in 'rampant self-pity' - what's wrong with that? I do it all the time myself 

Yes, Langgaard should be in the record guide - especially for symphonies 4-6 and 10 and The Music of the Spheres'.

[Wanderer]

I notice that Langgaard has been expelled completely from the latest edition(2009) of the Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music.
Not a single cd of his music is included.

I never liked that rag of a guide anyway.

[Wanderer]

Listen to the Requiem, or the Songs of Farewell. ... for the former, take the Meredith Davies, for the latter Sargent.

Thanks for mentioning the Requiem, a work I don't have but which sounds utterly delightful (a strange thing to say for a Requiem). The only readily available rendition I can find, however, is the one on Chandos coupled with the Mass of Life. How do you like that one?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks for mentioning the Requiem, a work I don't have but which sounds utterly delightful (a strange thing to say for a Requiem). The only readily available rendition I can find, however, is the one on Chandos coupled with the Mass of Life. How do you like that one?

Hickox does a fine job, and the choir is excellent too. But I don't like the male soloist, whose voice I find a bit too grainy. Still, the Requiem really comes through as the fine work it undoubtedly is.

[The new erato]

I shall obey your command

Me too finds Delius boring (to put it perhaps too strongly). I understand what Jezetha is saying, I always suspect there is something more there lurking under the surface, and I end up waiting for it to resurface, and then wait some more, but it too seldom does. I  know full well that it often is a matter of persistence in listening, but there is too much other exciting music lying there to be explore, so I seldom come around to it. But who knows, perhaps I'll try the cello concerto again, I remember once thinking that this was a work worth persevering.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Me too finds Delius boring (to put it perhaps too strongly). I understand what Jezetha is saying, I always suspect there is something more there lurking under the surface, and I end up waiting for it to resurface, and then wait some more, but it too seldom does. I  know full well that it often is a matter of persistence in listening, but there is too much other exciting music lying there to be explore, so I seldom come around to it. But who knows, perhaps I'll try the cello concerto again, I remember once thinking that thos was a work worthe persevering.

You know, Erato, with Delius the surface IS the depth (Nietzsche, 'Die Oberfläche ist die Tiefe'). If you're waiting for something to surface, you're missing the music... Delius is atmosphere, poetry, beauty of sound. Though to some he may be meandering, he mostly is very controlled. There is structure to his musings and evocations.

Some people respond to Delius, many others don't. I belong to those who have been touched by him. And he will stay with me until I die.

[This is turning into a Delius thread...]

[The new erato]

You know, Erato, with Delius the surface IS the depth (Nietzsche, 'Die Oberfläche ist die Tiefe'). If you're waiting for something to surface, you're missing the music... Delius is atmosphere, poetry, beauty of sound. Though to some he may be meandering, he mostly is very controlled. There is structure to his musings and evocations.

Some people respond to Delius, many others don't. I belong to those who have been touched by him. And he will stay with me until I die.

[This is turning into a Delius thread...]

Perhaps surface is not enough for me, at least not in large structures (I can be charmed by 5 minute miniatures too). Reminds me of mye response in a thread on Brilliants Tallis disc, that I find the music (generally) simply too beautiful and that it needs something more. Or maybe I'm just eaasily bored.

[Lethevich]

Is there a reason for the immediate openings of no.7 and 13 sounding the same? I thought I was listening to the wrong thing at first