Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[snyprrr]

Am I reaching the end of this mania, or has it only begun?


The reviews for Maxim's Supraphon 4 talk about a "bad mushroom trip"- as if I could resist wording like that. The Prague is the "lowliest" orchestra I would consider for such a demanding piece (though, obviously, someone like Berlin might be too nice for this?).

[Karl Henning]

Son, put the DSCH 5 down and step away from the computer... I won't warn you again!

Your timing is exemplary . . . just listening now to the Op.47 as conducted by Maksim Dmitriyevich.  The first movement (which, BTW, is marked Moderato . . . and, arguably, many conductors, lured by the emotional potential of those leaping dotted-rhythms, push it a bit) I find poignant in restraint like this, makes the development section with the piano entrance sound nervier, more excited.  Finding this a particularly poetic reading of the movement.  He doesn't slow back as much as some others do, when the side-drum-&-timpani tattoo comes in.

Whenever Sarge gets around to this set, I think he may rank this Fifth quite highly.

[Karl Henning]

Am I reaching the end of this mania, or has it only begun?


The reviews for Maxim's Supraphon 4 talk about a "bad mushroom trip"- as if I could resist wording like that. The Prague is the "lowliest" orchestra I would consider for such a demanding piece (though, obviously, someone like Berlin might be too nice for this?).

Maybe you've heard me say this half a dozen times before (or, maybe not), but there are stretches of that recording which are about the best I have ever heard the piece.

[Karl Henning]

Your timing is exemplary . . . just listening now to the Op.47 as conducted by Maksim Dmitriyevich.  The first movement (which, BTW, is marked Moderato . . . and, arguably, many conductors, lured by the emotional potential of those leaping dotted-rhythms, push it a bit) I find poignant in restraint like this, makes the development section with the piano entrance sound nervier, more excited.  Finding this a particularly poetic reading of the movement.  He doesn't slow back as much as some others do, when the side-drum-&-timpani tattoo comes in.

Whenever Sarge gets around to this set, I think he may rank this Fifth quite highly.

And the quiet, dance-like coda of the first movement . . . here, too, Maksim Dmitriyevich takes it perhaps slower than I recall anyone else.  There is something tender and endearing in the character here;  and the exquisite iciness of the orchestra here, snypsss, will convince you how very fine a group this can be.

[snyprrr]

And the quiet, dance-like coda of the first movement . . . here, too, Maksim Dmitriyevich takes it perhaps slower than I recall anyone else.  There is something tender and endearing in the character here;  and the exquisite iciness of the orchestra here, snypsss, will convince you how very fine a group this can be.

ooppps, screwed up the 'Insert Quote'- hope this reads- yes, so Maxim/Supraphon 5? mmm.......... and I see you're confirming the 4th. (you have the set or just those singles?- I know the 15th got top billing in the deathmatch but I can't get the set just for that- the 4th is a good stand alone though I guess).

Still, it looks like I'll give Mackerras a go at 5. Can't be all bad for a penny? It's 'live' with the Royal Phil. (same as Ashkenazy/Decca).


btw- I'm becoming obsessed with that piano figure in the 1st mvmt- bm-bm-bm     bm-bm-bm    bm-bm-bm    bm-bm-bm

Seriously, I need some ExLax for my DSCH constipation! It's like it's 1992 all over again and I've gone DSCH crazy. I thought I had put him to rest and moved on? Well, I must admit he writes the best Beethoven music I've heard, and he's a very "human" Composer writing things that speak directly the the Heart of Man. eh, I can't think of any other Composer I'd want to album-research (for some of you others it's Mahler or Beethoven).


1 - concerned, but not concerned

2&3

4- here's one piece of music I think I could stand a few perspectives on- and there sure are a lot of helpful conductors in this one

5- why do I still care? I still do, so, don't ask- not taking to the 'Testament' ending too well, though

6- don't care (I'd just get Jarvi again)

7- NEVER HEARD IT, DON'T CARE

8-

9-

10- having problems here, this one could get messy

11- don't care (have Stokowski)

12

13- too many odd duck choices, could get expensive

14- I don't care, so WHY do I care??? again, too many choice and it could get expensive

15- awaiting Sanderling/Cleveland...... loved the Ashkenazy..... Jansons was just too 'nice' for me and the awesome sound seemed to DETRACT from the fetid musty death air (just heard the non-Dresden Kondrashin which REALLY creeped me out!!). I'd like to Collect the 15th, many many interesting recordings I'd like to try...




What a brutal regiment i have set myself up for. hack... and slice.... and chop... and hack

[Sergeant Rock]

Ahhh, now you know that's just the kind of language we don't allow around here!!

Seriously, 1) tempos + sound are decent?  2) the bass is awesome?  3) the choir can fake Russian well?

I know...I really haven't helped you but I'm in the middle of cooking a very complicated (or rather, labor intensive) dinner for Mrs. Rock and I can only get to the computer in brief spurts...not long enough to go into detail about that performance. Just take my word for it   (yeah, right  )


Sarge

[Karl Henning]

. . . yes, so Maxim/Supraphon 5? mmm.......... and I see you're confirming the 4th. (you have the set or just those singles?- I know the 15th got top billing in the deathmatch but I can't get the set just for that- the 4th is a good stand alone though I guess).

I do have the set;  but I bought the Fourth as a single first.  On the strength of that 'un, I knew I should spring for the set.

[Karl Henning]

7- NEVER HEARD IT, DON'T CARE

The recording that convinced me, at a time when I was firmly jaded against the piece . . . to the side of the Grand Hall of the Philharmonic in Arts Square in Petersburg, there is (or was) a shoe-box shop, where I bought a cassette of Yuri Temirkanov leading the St Petersburg Phil.  (You can get a Used - Good copy on Amazon marketplace for $0.41.)  I had a "preview" to write for the expatriate English-language weekly newspaper, and (making an effort to be a Good Scout) I wanted to listen to the entire piece before writing about it.  I probably still only half-listened to the first movement on that occasion.  But the middle movements transfixed me.  I must have listened to them five times before proceeding to the last movement (and the writing of my article).

When I was back in the States (and still in the ambivalent condition of liking three of the movements of the Op.60), a virtual acquaintance spoke as if he simply thought the whole piece great; so I asked, WHO???

His answer:  Ančerl/Cz Phil.  Which, the monaural recording notwithstanding, is indeed a marvelous account of the piece.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I'll be . . . I expect I posted this as a review on Amazon, but I turned up this Word doc which was my "notebook":

Shostakovich thirteenth Haitink

The story goes that Shostakovich read Yevtushenko's poem "Babi Yar" in a journal, and immediately wanted to set it to music, and in fact he had practically done the work when he called the poet for permission to use the poem.  Then began a kind of collaborative process in which Yevtushenko wrote four other poems, so that settings of the five would together comprise a symphony for orchestra, solo bass and men's chorus.

The first movement is so marvelously dramatic, and so perfectly complements the text, that anything I might say would be superfluous.  Shostakovich's talent for building "brute textures" here has full play, in music of searing directness and simplicity.

"Humor" is a heavy-booted scherzo for the second movement;  a little too heavy perhaps, though it absolutely serves the text (rulers have commanded parades, demonstrating their might, but they cannot command humor, which is always a power of the people).

Where in his eighth symphony, Shostakovich wrote a symphony with two scherzi, here in the thirteenth, he pulls off two slow movements.  The first of these, "In the Store", begins with a low-string monologue, establishing a long-breathed rhythm which is maintained throughout.  Most of the movement is fairly quiet, like the lives of the Russian women whose strength and perseverance is commemorated in the poem, and who bore the brunt of the injustices and hardships of the Soviet era.  A long crescendo builds to accentuate indignation at their treatment by self-interested merchants ("It is shameful to short-change them, It is sinful to short-weight them").

Such were the circumstances of his life, that Shostakovich refined the writing of gloomy music to an intense degree;  the opening of the fourth movement, "Fears," with its seemingly aimless muffled tuba, grumbles in the percussion played so softly that you strain to hear them, a keening melody in the low strings, and then the men's choir coming in on a monotone, "Fears are dying out in Russia" ... in a way personally unfortunate for the composer, but artistically fortunate for the world, Shostakovich had been prepared by long years to write just such a chilling passage of musical understatement.

The last movement, "A Career" alternates between a tired, and almost strangely complacent, waltz theme introduced by the flute, and a bumptious setting of the text itself, so that when the bass solo and the men's choir are present, the feeling of the second movement ("Humor") is distantly recalled. But the bouncy music evolves into a fughetta, which turns edgy with the horn entrance;  this subsides into a graver mood for the voices ("Those who hurled curses have been forgotten, We remember the ones they cursed").  The bells which opened the symphony come back, softer, the nostalgic waltz returns in the strings ... at the last, a final toll of the bell dies away into silence.

Marius Rintzler has a fine voice, and the chorus sound fine as well;  their Russian pronunciation could be better, but is fair for the most part.  The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound fabulous.

[Karl Henning]

Symphony No.5 op.47
M.Shostakovitch/Supr.     19:19*     5:06     14:18     12:50

Timing of the fourth movement is actually 12:20.  (And that is the duration of the track;  the symphony opens disc 5, and is followed by the Op.70.)

[Sergeant Rock]

5- why do I still care? I still do, so, don't ask- not taking to the 'Testament' ending too well, though

Then go for Lenny live in Tokyo. If Mirror Image were still on board the Classical Express (instead of in prog rock purgatory), he'd insist, badger you to death, actually, until you finally ordered that one    I'd agree with him.

15- awaiting Sanderling/Cleveland...... loved the Ashkenazy..... Jansons was just too 'nice' for me and the awesome sound seemed to DETRACT from the fetid musty death air (just heard the non-Dresden Kondrashin which REALLY creeped me out!!). I'd like to Collect the 15th, many many interesting recordings I'd like to try...)

Yes, you need several Fifteenths, including Kondrashin.

Sarge

[snyprrr]

Well, I'll be . . . I expect I posted this as a review on Amazon, but I turned up this Word doc which was my "notebook":

Shostakovich thirteenth Haitink

The story goes that Shostakovich read Yevtushenko's poem "Babi Yar" in a journal, and immediately wanted to set it to music, and in fact he had practically done the work when he called the poet for permission to use the poem.  Then began a kind of collaborative process in which Yevtushenko wrote four other poems, so that settings of the five would together comprise a symphony for orchestra, solo bass and men's chorus.

The first movement is so marvelously dramatic, and so perfectly complements the text, that anything I might say would be superfluous.  Shostakovich's talent for building "brute textures" here has full play, in music of searing directness and simplicity.

"Humor" is a heavy-booted scherzo for the second movement;  a little too heavy perhaps, though it absolutely serves the text (rulers have commanded parades, demonstrating their might, but they cannot command humor, which is always a power of the people).

Where in his eighth symphony, Shostakovich wrote a symphony with two scherzi, here in the thirteenth, he pulls off two slow movements.  The first of these, "In the Store", begins with a low-string monologue, establishing a long-breathed rhythm which is maintained throughout.  Most of the movement is fairly quiet, like the lives of the Russian women whose strength and perseverance is commemorated in the poem, and who bore the brunt of the injustices and hardships of the Soviet era.  A long crescendo builds to accentuate indignation at their treatment by self-interested merchants ("It is shameful to short-change them, It is sinful to short-weight them").

Such were the circumstances of his life, that Shostakovich refined the writing of gloomy music to an intense degree;  the opening of the fourth movement, "Fears," with its seemingly aimless muffled tuba, grumbles in the percussion played so softly that you strain to hear them, a keening melody in the low strings, and then the men's choir coming in on a monotone, "Fears are dying out in Russia" ... in a way personally unfortunate for the composer, but artistically fortunate for the world, Shostakovich had been prepared by long years to write just such a chilling passage of musical understatement.

The last movement, "A Career" alternates between a tired, and almost strangely complacent, waltz theme introduced by the flute, and a bumptious setting of the text itself, so that when the bass solo and the men's choir are present, the feeling of the second movement ("Humor") is distantly recalled. But the bouncy music evolves into a fughetta, which turns edgy with the horn entrance;  this subsides into a graver mood for the voices ("Those who hurled curses have been forgotten, We remember the ones they cursed").  The bells which opened the symphony come back, softer, the nostalgic waltz returns in the strings ... at the last, a final toll of the bell dies away into silence.

Marius Rintzler has a fine voice, and the chorus sound fine as well;  their Russian pronunciation could be better, but is fair for the most part.  The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound fabulous.

It's the only one I've ever had,- and all the Reviewers, when speaking about some other recording, say, Oh finally a 13th to retire the Haitink! Now, it's as fine as I think I could want, and as I was rooting around yesterday the competition is as slim and fierce as anything. Even the SLIGHTEST negative point is bound to send people elsewhere.

I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else. But who can tell once in Haitink's world? And so when I just went for the Kamu/Chandos without looking first, because I assumed it was an earlier, faster interpretation, I found later that Kamu takes longer than even Haitink! (But- and I'm going to hold 'Grady harp' to it- I'm guessing Kamu keeps the tension level just a bit higher than Haitink?).

All of a sudden I'm obsessed with the glutteral? sounds of Russian basses??? Is it Leifer- Alexs- whaaa?? Yea, Rintzler has served his purpose but ideally we'd all like Rebroff? or somethingm haha! But, the fact that Leiferkus has like four different versions to choose from, it seems like one must go with him. I am frankly leaning towards Jarvi, AGAIN!! (I'm sorry guys, but because I rejected the Jarvi 11 I feel the right to give him the benefit of the doubt). Unless you actually have the Jarvi and the rest and can definitely say one way or the other, I have a feeling Jarvi and the Goteborg band of cutthroats could actually be the best backing for him. Just a hunch, only because of the silence.


btw-

HOW MANY CDS DID I ORDER TODAY?

[snyprrr]

The last few weeks of research have exposed some of the Cycle Bashing that routinely goes on in DSCHLand. Just a couple of points:

1) The Rostropovitch Cycle has the worst reputation of all it seems, but I've found the 4th and the 15th, at least, to be Top3 Contenders. And the 14th is the old one. And perhaps the disc with 1 and 9 is different? I can see that he might have some issues in the really big ones, 7, 8, maybe 10, so, perhaps there is a lot of good criticism to level, but, if the IS a sucky Cycle, the Rule is is that there may very well be one diamond in there, at least.

2) Ashkenazy just gets short shrift perhaps because of the Decca-Haitink Syndrome. I've always enjoyed his 5th, and yes I know it is like a museum piece, but, seriously, for some it is STILL their favourite TO  LISTEN TO. And research proved that the 9/15 split is a Top3 encounter no doubt, and further research may yield a very good 10th. I've also heard good things about the 1/6 recording.

But with Ashkenazy the Cycle the criticism is somewhat easier to navigate. It's clear that one should stay away from the Japanese orchestra as they are just not competitive in 13-14, and one could be excused for being wary about 2, 3, 12, and 11, and I certainly won't go near them. But then there is a St. Petersburg 7-8 that I'd be very curious about.

My point with Ashkenazy is that Decca, from the get-go, has given him sumptuous Decca sound, and the Royal Phil. have seemingly at least played extremely well for him, and, I must say, he is by no mean a Conservative (as he has been accused) when it comes to things like the 15th. I'm just saying this because i think may think I'm an Ashkenazy apologist, and I am not here at all. He has just really surprised me the most, and I'm just giving him credit. For him I can recommend 1/6, 9/15, possibly 10, and maybe 4- some say the first Decca 4th was the weakest of the Cycle and he remade it with the Japanese orchestra, though the Reviews for that are less than for the first one. But there HAVE BEEN positive Reviews about his 4th, and at least the sound should be sweet.

3) All those ESSENTIAL Russian come in sound that makes me cry.

4) Jarvi Is King! Why would anyone criticize the Jarvman?? Yes, I know, it's the Big Chandos BoomBoom. But then what of his DG 13-15? Not a peep from anyone. No, Jarvi is pretty must straight on somewhere near the Top3 in every important work. I dunno, you can listen to Endless Russian Coughing but you can't put up with a little Chandos BoomBoom?

5)

[aukhawk]

Symphony No.5 op.47
...
Previn(RCA)                     17:25    4:58      15:58        9:43

This is particularly interesting as it was only Previn's 2nd (or maybe even 1st?) release as a 'classical' conductor.  I was still reeling at the idea of someone who was famed as a cocktail-style jazz pianist tackling this sort of stuff.  The slow movement especially is as good as any I've ever heard.

[aukhawk]

Op.10 is really only highlighted as a "single symphony" on that Ormandy disc? No- I think there's a couple of others too who just did a single Op.10. It's another one that I could handle any exciting performance, outre or not. (though I don't know of any Sleepers- though they say Caetani takes it real fast).

I've lived with the Ormandy Shostakovich 1st Symphony since my elder brother bought the LP (for the Cello Concerto) in the early '60s.  I've never heard better.  The recordings are both exceptionally good by CBS standards of the time (which were often not so good - but these are the exceptions).   It's a favourite symphony of mine and although currently I usually turn to Caetani, if I had to only have one version, it would definitely be Ormandy.

[snyprrr]

I've lived with the Ormandy Shostakovich 1st Symphony since my elder brother bought the LP (for the Cello Concerto) in the early '60s.  I've never heard better.  The recordings are both exceptionally good by CBS standards of the time (which were often not so good - but these are the exceptions).   It's a favourite symphony of mine and although currently I usually turn to Caetani, if I had to only have one version, it would definitely be Ormandy.

Yes, confirmation nf that unusually transparent CBS recording. I'd like to get the disc simply with 1 * 5 but that's ridiculously $$$. But i guess we can handle another CC1.


I'm recovering from Finger-Press-itis.... ooowwww.... I hit BuyItNow! just one too many times today...oooowwwww......

[Karl Henning]

I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else. But who can tell once in Haitink's world?

That's it, in a word!  He makes the deliberate clarity work;  and IMO being "dissatisfied" with that generally amounts to I've heard it dramatized, but now that the suit is stretched out, it doesn't seem to want to fit no more . . . .

[snyprrr]

That's it, in a word!  He makes the deliberate clarity work;  and IMO being "dissatisfied" with that generally amounts to I've heard it dramatized, but now that the suit is stretched out, it doesn't seem to want to fit no more . . . .

You're saying Haitink is a victim of Lenny's lower instincts?- our perceptions of Haitink?- because of yeasty interpretations that 'fill' listeners' ears with aural candy that they then get classically diabetic from, unable then to 'eat solid food'? In that case, Ashkenazy's restrained 5th IS Perfect! Anyhow- yes, I've been struggling with Haitink here, because, especially here with DSCH we are walking some fine line between emotion and clarity and all those fun teeter-totter effects that make it necessary for soooo many interpretations- meaning, per Haitink, that, even though he might be 'too cool' in, say, the 4th, he brings so many other things to the table that you haaave to include him- his reading does compel you-

I mean... I mean...

Maybe there IS NO Middle-of-the-Road? Tempo is out- what you FILL the tempo with is in.

Anyhow, what your Post brought up for me is that I'm having trouble finding the one Haitink/DSCH recording that I'm not going to have THAT problem with. I'm sorry, but,even though I'd give the whole set 4.93 Stars I'm still wondering which is TheOneHaitinkDSCH that is MyMustHave. I had already cut 14 & 15 for issues, and I'm now in the process of cutting the Rintzler 13th, the 5th has it's own set of criteria as we all know, (and, excluding for argument 2, 3, & 12) and that leaves 1/9, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

(I'm not being dogmatic with numbers here, just making a very very general argument)

So I'm figuring that in that last bunch is SomethingReallySpecial. And i know most of us would think it's the 8th (and it may be), but I'd like to know what the others hold- we've heard good things about the 6th and 10th, and I can't remember about the 7th or 11th. Does anyone really want to be known as TheGuyWhoNailedOne&Nine?

Yea man, he NAILS the 1/9 split! (seriously, he gets some criticism in the 1st because he's not a wild and crazy guuuy)

Obviously Haitink's gravity works best in the MostSeriousMusic.


Anyhow, looking over this Post now, everything I wrote sounds like bs-mm-haha (oh how do I manage?)



ALSO- I'M RECUPERATING FROM YESTERDAY'S BUY-A-THON....FUUUUU .... I basically have one recording of every work we've been discussing on the way, some two,... all different (I do joy in finding odd ducks/dark horses/aha moments)... can't wait (hope I'm still listening to DSCH when the arrive by RealSlowMail (the only way I'm saving here))...

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Don't make me have to sell my ass down by the docks for DSCH money!!



















(yes, time for nap)

zzzZZZzzz... zzzZZZzzz...

[snyprrr]

I took a dollar chance on the Lazarev/Virgin 14th with Mikael Krutikov as bass, who, the next year after this came out, was nominated for a Grammy for his 'Historie du Soldat'. So, based on that,... we'll see... Lazarev's 11th got lacerated in a DeathMatch (along with Stokowski!), but the Reviewer alluded to good things being said about this one (see how I have to justify my choices to ease my guilt?).

Frankly, in 14, the unreleased Barsha Premiere2i on YT has sounded to me the most delicious, followed somewhat by the famous early '70s Rosty (and the more widely available Barshai Premiere1). Rosty's hand clackers really sound like evil witch sounds, brrrrr.

14 has to sound absolutely horrifying I think- perhaps it should be staged in a Grand Guignol fashion with live people hanging from chains and offal strewn on stage?

[Karl Henning]

Anyhow, what your Post brought up for me is that I'm having trouble finding the one Haitink/DSCH recording that I'm not going to have THAT problem with. I'm sorry, but,even though I'd give the whole set 4.93 Stars I'm still wondering which is TheOneHaitinkDSCH that is MyMustHave. I had already cut 14 & 15 for issues, and I'm now in the process of cutting the Rintzler 13th, the 5th has it's own set of criteria as we all know, (and, excluding for argument 2, 3, & 12) and that leaves 1/9, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

(I'm not being dogmatic with numbers here, just making a very very general argument)

Check.  We are trying to accommodate your thought processes

Obviously Haitink's gravity works best in the MostSeriousMusic.

May be a matter of taste;  a few of us really like Benny's RVW cycle, and there is a fair volume of The Non-Serious in there, too.