Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[Karl Henning]

I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else.

Incidentally, I just listened to Fears from the Thirteenth, both Slava & Haitink, and . . . the latter is sharper, and clocks in at 34 seconds shorter than the former.  I didn't (do not) object to Slava's take at all . . . but I did find myself naturing grooving to the Haitink.

[snyprrr]

Check.  We are trying to accommodate your thought processes

Doh1 That's what she said!


So, everyone, your job this long ass, no mail weekend is to go listen to your most obscure DSCH and we'll back here after mail call Monday?!!


Karl- any particular Haitink you love more than the others?

[Karl Henning]

Karl- any particular Haitink you love more than the others?

Probably the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and Thirteenth are my favorites in his set.  I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh 

[Brahmsian]

I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh 

I wish he would.  Two dandies, right there.

[snyprrr]

I wish he would.  Two dandies, right there.

Probably the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and Thirteenth are my favorites in his set.  I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh 

I like 6 just fine, just don't need more distractions (and, I'd only get my old Jarvi back anyway), and the 7th I'm saving for a rainy day (still, you can let me know who the only one who gets the 7th right is, haha!).

back in the day, with 6, I sampled a few against Jarvi, and his 1st movement just won OUT! If it's better than Jarvi, ok. shoot

[relm1]

Incidentally, I just listened to Fears from the Thirteenth, both Slava & Haitink, and . . . the latter is sharper, and clocks in at 34 seconds shorter than the former.  I didn't (do not) object to Slava's take at all . . . but I did find myself naturing grooving to the Haitink.

My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

[snyprrr]

My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

Tah Daaah! See how independent confirmation points up the Sleeper Principle? My blind taste test research led me to the same conclusion last week and I await delivery. Can't wait!!

[Karl Henning]

My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

I don't know this 'un.  Who's the bass soloist?

[André]

Karl, this is lame... All my sources (aka Google) point to Nikita Storojev. Said sources also point to the hefty price of that presumably hallowed production. IOW it's a 'shall I, or not' ecision. Need instead of desire should be the definig factor. Of course for the inveterate collector, it goes in reverse 

[Karl Henning]

I shan't!

[snyprrr]

Karl, this is lame... All my sources (aka Google) point to Nikita Storojev. Said sources also point to the hefty price of that presumably hallowed production. IOW it's a 'shall I, or not' ecision. Need instead of desire should be the definig factor. Of course for the inveterate collector, it goes in reverse 

Whaddaya talkin about? I got it for $2 just the other day.


ok, back to the perennial question- in Russian names, what's up with the "-jev" at the end of this name, and also alternate spellings of Prokofiev?  We know that the "i" and the "j" are interchangeable, and we know that the "v" and the "w" are interchangeable, so, do these names really singnify -ief = -ieff = iev = iew ' jew'? I mean, there is a spelling on some cd here that actually spells "Prokofjew" or "Prokofijew". So, I'm just curious, I know Prokofiev isn't generally known for being a jew,... uh,... is he?

[snyprrr]

The Previn/CSO is overall very good.  I remember feeling that he didn't quite carry the "extended hocket" tutti of the third movement, but:  I should go back, listen again, and see if my ear has reconsidered.  I also have an impossibly niggling quarrel (which scarcely anyone else on GMG will care about) with one of the recurring rhythms in the big Pealing Brass passage, but I do not find that a Fatal Flaw.  The band sounds good, it cannot be denied.

First (again) listen to Jarvi's 4th (remember, I'd only heard Rostropovich recently, and I had Jarvi decades ago). Well, just to tackle your BigBoomBoom issue first: I'm sorry, Karl, it just has that classic Chandos/Jarvi/RSO sound- it's like a movie soundtrack acoustic- and, at least for this 4th, the cinematic, cavernous (not a fair work here, I'd simply "an orchestral ambience" (as opposed to chamber dimensions (it's a huge Symphony, after all))). Nooow, I do agree that perhaps the cymbals could use a little 20kHz or something, but, it's the '80s, and this record just TAKES ME THERE, right there to that glorious technology. Anyhow, yes, there is also a little cataclysmic thickness with those massive tuttis (and I'd surely like to hear a surgical recording), but, hey, it gives the feel of 'live' to me. I mean, I really can't just discount the record here. BOTTOM LINE: yes, this isn't EMI x-ray, Boulez Cleveland Telarc - and all that stuff's nice, but, - and - we all know what kind of Sound profile Chandos strives for (usually more rounded and creamy than EMI/Philips/DG- in a way more like a rich man's Naxos (if you understand my compliment))- and they usually give an "Epic" engineering, with sumptuous acoustics which are vividly captured. I personally think this Jarvi recording is a 9.7 and I would have only asked for just the tiniest tweak in the 20kHz or so for that cymbal sizzle (otherwise, the piccolo and xylophone are lovingly registered). I think it's BigBoom Music that gets the BigBoom treatment right here. In other words, any detraction from the sound, if there were any- well, I consider it a virtue in this recording (and, of course, as a general rule with this jarvi Cycle on Chandos). The brass and percussion are perfectly caught- some have called the strings a little thin, but they are totally appropriate as I hear them (I'd call it 'focused', not 'thin'- but, we all know the general sound of these Chandos SRO discs).

aye- sorry to right so much bs!

And how is Jarvi's performance? karl's sound issue aside, has anyone even criticized Jarvi's performance? Most will at least give him Top7 status, or Top5,... and many more will go Top3. I found everything perfectly judged, as they say, and I heard things here that didn't seem to make an impact in the Slava (though I will have to go and check- that's actually quite a 'dangerous' little performance there- DarkHorse), like the two harps. If there was one thing I'd like to hear a little more mechanistically, or menacingly, is, in the 3rd mvmt., that anti-phonal chordal back and forth that has such an abstract marching sound to it. Slava had a more conceptual idea of this particular section, but, I mean, THIS MUSIC IS OVERLOOAADED with a cornucopia of oriental delights. So, if i had to pick a criticism, there's one, but, seriously, that's just to appease the DA. I can't, and won't find fault with this record, I look forward to hearing the newer ones we've been discussing, but, as a general swiss army knife, everyone will have to answer to Jarvi before they can pass him. I'd like to try Chung next (need cheap) for its "best sound by far" raves. And I imagine Chung's performance is totally different than Jarvi's.

So, Slava also emerges as quite a Contender.Tell me where he falls flat,... I dare ya! And his Teldec sound is at least the equal to the more sumptuous Chandos Sound (Teldec has its own reputation, and the instruments are quite vividly caught for Slava's raw performance). Slva's a Contender for at least Top7, maybe Top5... maybe??

[Sergeant Rock]

And how is Jarvi's performance? karl's sound issue aside, has anyone even criticized Jarvi's performance?

The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Sarge

[snyprrr]

The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Sarge

STOP THIEF!! Haha- Jarvi "robbed' the music... I know... it happens all the time.

Yea, I think Jarvi makes it through the piece- I certainly don't have the insight to criticize in-depth like the Reviewer. And we all know what the Chandos sound sounds like,... sure... fair enough Review-

I compared with the Rosty/Teldec, and I must say that Rosty, from the first notes, delivers at least as much ooomph as Jarvi, and maybe a little more. The Telarc sound is nice and open (as usual), totally eliminating the Chandos sound issue. The drums are great- and I did hear the harps to good effect (at the end of the 1st). Frankly, I might juuust go with Rosty here, though, technically, both performances are very similar in temperament. Rosty just has a bit more open Teldec sound. But, in a DeathMatch, I'd put these two very close together.

Though I feel that Jarvi delivers, sure, I still want a more "x-ray"/Boulez type recording where everything is discernible (not that it's not in the Jarvi, but, yes, the sound makes tuttis thick (and no, I won't say "opaque", haha)).

It looks as though I'm set to defend Jarvi, even though I know there can be more. I do think I'd get Chung NEXT (not "only").

I can only imagine HOW violent the Rozh is- is it off-putting?




btw sarge- I'm ready for your Top5 6ths! Looking at the choices, i think I'd have to re-get my old Jarvi (again Jarvi!). AND I WAS LOOKING UP THE 7TH LAST NIGHT- apparently it's a toss-up between Bernstein (either) and whomever plays it the fastest? (some liked Jarvi, but many thought the Ashkenazy w/St. Petersburg was the best 'overall' (though some complain about the extreme dynamic range in this and in the Rosty- which, frankly, doesn't bother me as the march is supposed to start from a distance,... eh?)

Just to reiterate- I HAVE NOT EVER even listened to the 7th (maybe once in the very beginning, don't remember) because of prejudice against the music, so, if I hear Lenny FIRST, will that ruin others (or vice versa)? Should i start with a fast one and then go to Lenny? Jansons gets some fast timings, but I'm always afraid (even though he's Mavrinsky's homei) that he's going to be too 'perfect'.

anyhow...



Andrew Davis/LSO in the 10th (EMI)? The Shipway/BBC edged out Litton/Virgin (distant sound/impact) and competed heartily with Karajan82.

[Karl Henning]

The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Thanks, Sarge.  I had borrowed the CD from a friend on the west coast, but of course returned it many years ago.  I could not in good conscience presume to answer our snypsss directly!

[snyprrr]

Thanks, Sarge.  I had borrowed the CD from a friend on the west coast, but of course returned it many years ago.  I could not in good conscience presume to answer our snypsss directly!

That Rosty/Teldec 4 is definitely the tonic for those Jarvi criticisms.

Am I wrong or does NO ONE ON THIS FORUM have Chung? Even with the Amazon Reviewers Chung's vision hasn't been completely disseminated via TheFinalWord. (Salonen too)

Frankly, I'm really really impressed with the 4th as Absolute Music. I'm like, So this was written in the '20s, huh? Hmm. Mahler sounds like someone who's never seen a skyscraper, or flown, when compared to this.


WHO IS THE FIRST COMPOSER INFLUENCED BY AVIATION? (and not necessarily by overtly writing a TonePoem about, but in the 'Modern' style that wasn't possible before then).

[snyprrr]

What, oh What?!, will the mailman deliver today? Depends at the ready!!

[Karl Henning]

Aye, the Fourth is a great favorite of mine.

[North Star]

Aye, the Fourth is a great favorite of mine.

Mine, as well.
But then, the Fifth, Seventh, Eighth, Tenth, Thirteenth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth are alright, too. 

[Karl Henning]

Karlo, how could you skip the Sixth?  0:)

And Ninth?