Wagner Reacts To The Sui Generis Opera

[Operahaven]

Hi everyone,

It would have been fascinating to read just a single comment by Wagner on Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, don't you think so?...... Unfortunately Wagner died 19 years before the premiere.

How do you believe Wagner would have most likely reacted had he ever had the chance to experience Debussy's opera ?

[Brian]

I've never actually heard the opera in question. However, I would like to post a photograph of a pink harp.

[Chaszz]

Hi everyone,

It would have been fascinating to read just a single comment by Wagner on Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, don't you think so?...... Unfortunately Wagner died 19 years before the premiere.

How do you believe Wagner would have most likely reacted had he ever had the chance to experience Debussy's opera ?

Wagner's reaction: "A decadent and depraved work which should never have seen the light of day. Artistically more or less worthless, although he shows a little skill in the orchestration. You see here how the French are almost as bad as the Jews in having little racial vitality to express, being content to wanly harmonize a few insipid melodies, and pass this off as music, rather than boldly state and develop full-blooded themes. It is no wonder we were able to wallop them in 1870. Cosima, I confess I would rather die than be subjected to an age in which such pap is the normal musical fare."

[marvinbrown]

Wagner's reaction: "A decadent and depraved work which should never have seen the light of day. Artistically more or less worthless, although he shows a little skill in the orchestration. You see here how the French are almost as bad as the Jews in having little racial vitality to express, being content to wanly harmonize a few insipid melodies, and pass this off as music, rather than boldly state and develop full-blooded themes. It is no wonder we were able to wallop them in 1870. Cosima, I confess I would rather die than be subjected to an age in which such pap is the normal musical fare."

  Hmmm...chaszz Debussy was very much influenced by Wagner.  Most notably I find Pelleas et Mellisande most closely associated, in terms of musical tone, to Wagner's Parsifal  .  Despite Wagner's resentment of the frivolous French operatic culture of his time I'd like to think that he would have had something positive to say about Debussy's Pelleas which can hardly be called the typical French opera.  But then again I could be wrong.

  marvin   

[lukeottevanger]

  Hmmm...chaszz Debussy was very much influenced by Wagner.  Most notably I find Pelleas et Mellisande most closely associated, in terms of musical tone, to Wagner's Parsifal 

But then it's more complex than that, as it is on the record that Debussy desperately wanted P+M to be free of any Wagnerian traits. Whether or not he succeeded is another matter - for my money, whilst one can clearly  discern certain Wagnerism in the score, they don't penetrate much below the surface and have any effect on the completely new aesthetic of the opera. Precisely this question - of Wagner's influence on P+M - came up yesterday on the 'composers despising other composers' thread.

FWIW, I can't halp but think that Wagner would have disliked P+M, both for musical and philosophical reasons and, unfortunately, through prejudice.

[Sean]

Certainly the mood is dark, sensitive and Tristanesque Luke, if not sharing the declamation and overbearing aesthetic. P&M has been contrasted with Wagner in that the people, particularly Melisande, aren't sure what they think or feel, but in the case of Tristan this is unfair- there's as much murky indistinct psychology going on here as anywhere.

[lukeottevanger]

Certainly the mood is dark, sensitive and Tristanesque Luke, if not sharing the declamation and overbearing aesthetic. P&M has been contrasted with Wagner in that the people, particularly Melisande, aren't sure what they think or feel, but in the case of Tristan this is unfair- there's as much murky indistinct psychology going on here as anywhere.

But the aesthetic difference is the thing, though, Sean. It's vitally important, much more so than matters of tone and mood. Though this is a totally personal thing and nothing to do with intrinsic musical quality, it is the aesthetic difference (and obviously its musical expression) between P+M and Wagner in general which is why the former is possibly my favourite of all operas (including Janacek! )and why, though I love Wagner and find him mighty impressive, he also leaves me pretty unmoved. I don't intend to state that provocatively, and would have less than no argument with someone whose aesthetic proclivities led them in a different direction - I simply mean it to demonstrate that, surface similarities notwithstanding, there must be a pretty fundamental divide between the two, or else my responses (and those of others, of course) would not be so different.

As I've done elsewhere, I think a comparison of the T+I 'Liebestod' and the equivalent love-death in P+M (Act 4 scene 4) is instructive. Debussy's music is nothing like as visceral as Wagner's but that is because it is aiming in a diametrically opposed direction - it directs things inwards, towards stillness and silence,  and not outwards in some great cosmic cataclysm. It's more psychologically convincing and sympathetic too, for my money....! 

Furthermore, I think that tracing Wagnerisms in P+M (and elsewhere) is a game which can be overdone. Wagnerisms there certainly are, but he's not the only composer Debussy knew! There are also traces of other composers too - indeed, one can even find pages which seem to come from nowhere as much as they do Beethoven, for whose musical aesthetic Debussy had as little sympathy as he did Wagner's. The point, though, is that these pages are aesthetically entirely Debussian, and any surface musical similarities have been utterly swallowed up by the fundamentally opposed aesthetic base.

[Ephemerid]

I also opt for "This P&M is absent all drama.  It's nothing but an interminable lyric effusion written by a Frenchman whose music I find impossibly monotonous, diffuse, limp-wristed and effeminate."

Of course, that's not MY opinion of Pelleas!  Goodness, no!  Even though the influence of Wagner is certainaly present throughout Pelleas, Debussy's aesthetic is still very different from Wagner's, much more understated and perhaps "feminine" (Wagner can often seem very testosterone driven, which, for me, is a turn off-- that's not to say I don't think Wagner was not a good composer-- but I can only take him in very small doses).

From the standpoint of Wagner's aethetic, it would appear Pelleas is "monotonous, diffuse, limp-wristed," etc. .  But then, I guess from the standpoint of Debussy's aesthetic (which I feel closer to), Wagner would appear heavy-handed and overly melodramatic.  I'm not saying one is necessarily right and the other wrong, but they are both different and I know I prefer something a bit more musically & dramatically subtle. 

[lukeottevanger]

I think we're saying pretty much the same thing, there!

[Ephemerid]

I think we're saying pretty much the same thing, there!

-- except I think you put it much better than me!

[Sean]

I'll have to sleep on that Luke, though I think I take a different view. Certainly there's something extremely unusual and powerful going on as the third act of Tristan slowly winds up, and though it's not always easy, I'd argue there's a stillness throughout all Wagner. I know the piece from the Karajan recording, which rather emphasizes the Tristan connections, as far as this can be done; I think it's from the same period as his Tristan recording also.

I know what you're getting at of course- they're very different composers, but I would say there's Pellean glassiness to be found in Tristan also...

[lukeottevanger]

I'll have to sleep on that Luke, though I think I take a different view. Certainly there's something extremely unusual and powerful going on as the third act of Tristan slowly winds up,

No argument, it is extraordinary stuff....

and though it's not always easy, I'd argue there's a stillness throughout all Wagner.

I think I'd agree, but it's a stillness of a different type - if that makes any sense! It's not the simple, human-scale stillness of thought and reflection that one gets in Pelleas, anyway - it's something bigger and more cosmic, which is all well and good but not the be-all-and-end-all that some think it is. Nor does Wagner tend to mark his most climactic points with silences as Debussy does.

I know what you're getting at of course- they're very different composers, but I would say there's Pellean glassiness to be found in Tristan also...

You might well be right, though I think the sonority of P+M is more Parsifalian, if anything - it is one of those rare works which shares that peculiar inner glow that Parsifal has (and that Howard Skempton was trying to emulate with his Lento - do you know it? Minimalist Wagner - right up your street!). This is a matter of orchestration, of course. But my point remains, and you've agreed with it, that in the most important things in these works come from a very different place. One of the most important innovations in Pelleas, for example, is that simple, rather self-effacing declamatory style, parlando almost throughout, pattering along in repeated notes as up and down triads. The style of vocal writing which a composer adopts in an opera might well be the single most indicative pointer towards their aesthetic preoccupation (think of Bartok, Mussorgsky, Janacek, Britten too....) and I can't imagine anything more different from the bold and confident sostenuto of Wagnerian vocal writing. To mention just one thing (though I know you already mentioned this yourself).

[Sean]

Let me have a think about that. Sure I know the short Skempton piece- it works well enough but misses the richness and ambiguity(?) of the original prelude, needless to say. I also met a chap studying at Oxford once who did a doctorate on the links between the prelude and the Elgar First symphony, both in Ab- not sure what the heck he was saying though...

[lukeottevanger]

Let me have a think about that. Sure I know the short Skempton piece- it works well enough but misses the richness and ambiguity(?) of the original prelude, needless to say.

That's minimalism for you  (You know I don't mean it!)

I also met a chap studying at Oxford once who did a doctorate on the links between the prelude and the Elgar First symphony, both in Ab- not sure what the heck he was saying though...

Hmmm, I'm finding it hard to imagine myself. I don't quite trust that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure I could knock off something on the links between, say Beethoven op 110 and the Parsifal prelude too - both in A flat, both featuring 'minimalist' arpeggio figuration in demisemiquavers, both concerned with a radiant theme commencing with a motive based on the chord of A flat, both alternating this with a chorale theme, both with a very individual (but comparable!) soft, sweet sonority, both .... I'm sure there's much more too. I'm almost convincing myself! Though now I'm losing interest in that and beginning to see the links between the Beethoven op 110 and the Haydn A flat sonata.......The point being, Wagner is not the source of everything, as some seem to want him to be! 

[Operahaven]

Chaszz, Sean, Luke, Marvin, Ephemerid and others

You all make excellent points.... Though maybe he would have liked certain sections of Act 1 which is most reminiscent of  Parsifal  I think.

What about Schoenberg's opera  Moses und Aron ?.. Would he have admired it ?... Would he have been kinder in his assessment since Schoenberg was from Austria and the opera is in German ?

Or perhaps he would have found atonality and the 12-tone aesthetic totally repellent.

[Sean]

Luke, I guess a composer's operatic output is often a good indicator of their overall stance, Strauss being another example.

Also Carmen comes to mind in connection with Nietzsche's change of allegiance, yet the wider perspective has shown there are many intimate connections with the Wagner style Bizet was concerned with- another custard pie in Nietzsche's face I think. And I guess Debussy only continues the trend of this influence on French composers of the period. I'm not sure how Penelope or Ariane et Barbe-bleu fit in here, or Carmellites, but I expect they'd have links with the more openly Wagnerian operas of Chausson or D'Indy.

You're exactly right to note the eyebrow-raising topics of such a thesis as I mentioned: I've seen it many times, the scholar gets into a small number of composers or works, then thinks how clever they are drawing links between them, when really they're all situated in a continuum that has multiple parallels going on.

[marvinbrown]

Chaszz, Sean, Luke, Marvin, Ephemerid and others

You all make excellent points.... Though maybe he would have liked certain sections of Act 1 which is most reminiscent of  Parsifal  I think.

  This was exactly my first impression of P+M.  But then again I have been immersed (brainwashed) in Wagner's music for so long it has become impossible for me to judge other works without refering to Wagner   .

  marvin

[Sean]

By the way I don't know any D'Indy operas, bar the Fervaal prelude, nor any Roussel- but there's a recent recording of his Padmavati, based on the legend of the Hindu god Venkateswara and his consort.

[Operahaven]

But then again I have been immersed (brainwashed) in Wagner's music for so long it has become impossible for me to judge other works without refering to Wagner   .

Oh don't worry Marvin, I sympathize completely !