Your favourite Vaughan Williams Symphonies?

[Guido]

This is all great stuff. I only really know the 2nd and 4th Symphonies having played the former and listened to the latter, so my Handley recording of the complete Symphonies is greatly anticipated. I'm thinking 5th, 6th and 3rd will be listened to first in that order. Are the last 2 really as weird as I have read so often? People haven't really mentioned that here?

Is that 'bittersweetness' in English music entirely due to false relations? I'd like to see some examples in a piano score of something to see how they 'work' (as I'm rubbish at reading harmony off an orchestral score). Piano music has never really been a major thing amongst English composers (an interesting topic in itself), but reductions abound. I have the cello concertos of Finzi and Walton with me with piano reductions, so if anyone could refer to specific passages in these works that would be great! (A long shot I know!)

[lukeottevanger]

Is that 'bittersweetness' in English music entirely due to false relations?

I wouldn't claim that, no, but harmonically speaking it plays an important part.

I'd like to see some examples in a piano score of something to see how they 'work' (as I'm rubbish at reading harmony off an orchestral score). Piano music has never really been a major thing amongst English composers (an interesting topic in itself), but reductions abound. I have the cello concertos of Finzi and Walton with me with piano reductions, so if anyone could refer to specific passages in these works that would be great! (A long shot I know!)

Actually, one of the most false-relation ridden English pieces I can think of is for piano (or clavichord) - the two sets by Howells, Lambert's Clavichord and Howells' Clavichord. Some of these are just drenched in the most exquisite harmony imaginable, gorgeous rich appogiature, magical suspended moments, but above all false relations everywhere. It's no coincidence that these two sets are particularly rooted in Renaissance music - the ghost of the Fitzwilliam Book lies behind them all, as one can see in the titles of the various pieces. In general, Howells is a good place to look for particularly pungent false relations, of a different sort to VW's, with a much more chromatically distorted and extended harmony.

As I said before, a classic false relation piece, one whose predominant tone is drawn from them, is the Walton Viola Concerto, whose minor third incipit alternates with major thirds to great effect. We're a long way from VW technically here, but the effect is in the same ballpark, whilst distinctly Waltonian in its romanticism

[karlhenning]

. . . I even prefer the Seventh to the Fifth. I've never analysed my reaction even though I've always been in the minority in this respect.

FWIW, I don't find anything wrong with that, Sarge.

[karlhenning]

I'm wondering about people's opinions of the 9th. I've never listened too it much. What does anyone who's listened to it frequently think about it?

Couldn't say that I've listened to it frequently; but I should like to have 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

After fortifying myself with the Ninth (haunting work!), I am now listening to the Fifth. And - 'I get it'. This really is a great work. In its subtlety and terseness I think it ranks with the Sibelius Fourth. For the first time I notice the tension that is ever-present. I am strongly reminded of Job. The first movement is a curtain-raiser, where you glimpse a goal. I'm now in the Romanza, that seems to open in heaven itself. I don't know what Vaughan Williams does with those strings, but this is visionary.

The Romanza is now winding down, like a sort of dusk falling. The Passacaglia has just started.

This is an inspired work, no doubt about it.

The Fifth just finished. I was afraid it would end with a repeat of the climax we already heard in the first movement, but it didn't. What a masterly work! I think I have to change my favourites to 3, 5 and 6.

[lukeottevanger]

That admirably open-minded post makes beautiful reading, Jez, I must say - not because I am a particular lover of the Fifth, but because it shows sensitive, perceptive listening. You describe the piece very well, I think.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That admirably open-minded post makes beautiful reading, Jez, I must say - not because I am a particular lover of the Fifth, but because it shows sensitive, perceptive listening. You describe the piece very well, I think.

Thank you, Luke. It's always wonderful when something begins to speak to you. I really experienced the work as it unfolded, understanding what was happening, and why. My comparison with the Sibelius Fourth still stands, though I would now say that that is more cryptic than terse. There is a larger time-frame to RVW's Fifth. Perhaps because Sibelius wrote the Fourth under the shadow of death? Just speculating...

And I am certainly going to read Mellers' study. The Royal Library in The Hague (of which I am a member) has a copy...

[drogulus]

I don't know what Vaughan Williams does with those strings, but this is visionary.

I think the strings are divided into subsections. Hovhaness does this in his Mysterious Mountain symphony, which has a similar ethereal sound.

[lukeottevanger]

I think the strings are divided into subsections. Hovhaness does this in his Mysterious Mountain symphony, which has a similar ethereal sound.

Yes - this is probably the bit you mean:

[lukeottevanger]

....or you might be referring to the thick string textures he achieves a little later, such as:

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think the strings are divided into subsections. Hovhaness does this in his Mysterious Mountain symphony, which has a similar ethereal sound.

You're right - divisi strings. But RVW is not the only one to use them. There must be something in the spacing of the chords to create such an ethereal effect. You can hear the same thing in his Second and Fourth.

When I now look back at the Fifth, what strikes me most is the poetic refinement of the whole work.

P.S. We posted at the same time, Luke. Thanks for the music examples!

[drogulus]

     Check out Bruckners 9th, last movement, approx. 16.01 (Bernstein/Columbia). Is this the same thing? It's not as thick, so maybe not. The first time I heard this, I jumped out of my chair!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

     Check out Bruckners 9th, last movement, approx. 16.01 (Bernstein/Columbia). Is this the same thing? It's not as thick, so maybe not. The first time I heard this, I jumped out of my chair!

I know the passage - it's the one with the harp(s), too, isn't it? Glorious indeed. Whether the strings are subdivided, I wonder. Bruckner isn't very adventurous in the orchestral department, like Berlioz or Wagner (his biggest 'shocks' are in polyphony, harmony and structure, IMO).

[Guido]

I still haven't heard Howell's clavichord pieces yet... Must order them at some point.

The Handley Symphonies boxed sets arrived today! I am really looking forward to this.

[Dana]

After fortifying myself with the Ninth (haunting work!), I am now listening to the Fifth. And - 'I get it'. This really is a great work. In its subtlety and terseness I think it ranks with the Sibelius Fourth. For the first time I notice the tension that is ever-present. I am strongly reminded of Job. The first movement is a curtain-raiser, where you glimpse a goal. I'm now in the Romanza, that seems to open in heaven itself. I don't know what Vaughan Williams does with those strings, but this is visionary.

The Romanza is now winding down, like a sort of dusk falling. The Passacaglia has just started.

This is an inspired work, no doubt about it.

The Fifth just finished. I was afraid it would end with a repeat of the climax we already heard in the first movement, but it didn't. What a masterly work! I think I have to change my favourites to 3, 5 and 6.

      Reading that Mahler thread makes me want to compare Mahler & Vaughan-Williams 5th symphonies - if you edit out Mahler's 2nd mvt, and replace the funeral march with a sort of an overture.

[Guido]

What are people's thoughts on the Seventh? I know it was refashioned from film music, but does it produce a rapid departure from the normal qulaity of his works? I haven't heard it yet. Am listening to the Fifth.

[Benji]

What are people's thoughts on the Seventh? I know it was refashioned from film music, but does it produce a rapid departure from the normal qulaity of his works? I haven't heard it yet. Am listening to the Fifth.

Perhaps it suffers from a structural point of view compared to the other symphonies for being 're-fashioned', i'm not qualified to say, but wow the music is awesome! The subject was apparently fascinating to Vaughan Williams and boy can you tell; the music reveals a stunningly wealthy imagination at work. Please, please, listen to it with your eyes closed and it will paint such a spectacularly vivid picture of that frozen landscape you will be in awe. I'm so jealous that you've not heard it yet, what a treat for you.

[BorisG]

What are people's thoughts on the Seventh? I know it was refashioned from film music, but does it produce a rapid departure from the normal qulaity of his works? I haven't heard it yet. Am listening to the Fifth.

I do not like Nos. 1, 2, 7, 8. They were culled long ago.

[greg]

I voted 2, 3, 6. (7 as a runner-up)

Although I'm not extremely familiar with all of them still.......

[karlhenning]

What are people's thoughts on the Seventh? I know it was refashioned from film music, but does it produce a rapid departure from the normal qulaity of his works? I haven't heard it yet. Am listening to the Fifth.

I'm largely with Ben here;  I've always just plain liked the music of the Seventh, and I've never been worried over its departures from 'strict symphony production'.

Unlike, say, the Prokofiev Fourth which, much though I like so much of what goes on in it, I have trouble thinking of as a symphony.

Edit :: typo