Your favourite Vaughan Williams Symphonies?

[Sergeant Rock]

      Is that Barbirolli 8th the Dutton from '56 or the later EMI? I'd go for the earlier one.

Yes, the one on Dutton which I purchased last year. It's the same performance I found and bought in 1966 when it was on the Vanguard Everyman budget label ($1.99, I recall). I still have that, my first classical record 




Sarge

[Dana]

Dana! Welcome back!

I'm wondering about people's opinions of the 9th. I've never listened too it much. What does anyone who's listened to it frequently think about it?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Someone was mentioning the "typically english" or british in RVWs music... What is this? Is it like describing smooth, green hills? As a german, thinking of typically english music I'm thinking of the greensleeves fantasia. Or George Butterworths "The Banks Of Green Willow"... Is that supposed to be english? Music, that makes me think of "All Creatures Great and Small/de:Der Doktor und das liebe Vieh" tv series
Where is it in RVWs symphonies? In Antarctica I guess it is not...

[Dana]

      I think of the first movement of the London Symphony, or the 1st movement of the Sea Symphony. I think it's more rhythmic than anything else, but this English sound tends to wander less harmonically as well - fewer chords that aren't within the standard seven or so, sudden key changes, et cetera. The presence of a so called "typically english" voice decreases in Vaughan-Williams symphonic output over time, as he goes for more standard symphonic fare in the 4th-6th symphonies, and then starts experimenting more with his final three.

[drogulus]

Yes, the one on Dutton which I purchased last year. It's the same performance I found and bought in 1966 when it was on the Vanguard Everyman budget label ($1.99, I recall). I still have that, my first classical record  8


Sarge

     Wow! Yeah, that would be it. Recorded in 1956 by the Mercury Living Presence team.

     

[drogulus]

      I think of the first movement of the London Symphony, or the 1st movement of the Sea Symphony. I think it's more rhythmic than anything else, but this English sound tends to wander less harmonically as well - fewer chords that aren't within the standard seven or so, sudden key changes, et cetera. The presence of a so called "typically english" voice decreases in Vaughan-Williams symphonic output over time, as he goes for more standard symphonic fare in the 4th-6th symphonies, and then starts experimenting more with his final three.

     I agree that this explains a big part of what is taken to be the "British sound". It didn't start that way though. It began with Elgar, who was not in the least a composer in British folk idioms. His sound was so influential among British composers that we now understand musical "Britishness" as somehow emanating from him. Which is strange, really, because Vaughan Williams and Holst veered far from the Elgar model, each in his own way deeply influenced by folk music as well as each other. When we get to Walton, we hear the Elgar influence quite clearly again. Arnold sounds Waltonian without sounding so much like Elgar, Britten sounds as international as Elgar once did a century ago.

[lukeottevanger]

  but this English sound tends to wander less harmonically as well - fewer chords that aren't within the standard seven or so, sudden key changes, et cetera.

I'm not sure if you mean this specifically for a certain 'type' of 'English' sound, but I would say something rather different. One of the things which makes VW sound so English - or which he made into an English soun - is the use of false relations (derived in part from Tudor composers such as Tallis himself). In VW false relations are very often expressed in parallel triads, so that it becomes almost the echt-VW fingerprint. You find it everywhere, to the extent that one could list hundreds of examples, but just taking the openings of movements we get parallel chord sequences such as

Sea Symphony, 2nd movement - C minor to E major
5th Symphony, 3rd movement - C major, A major, G minor
Tallis Fantasia - G major, F major, B flat major, A flat major, G flat major

These sequences - and I must emphasize, they are everywhere in VW - use many more than just 'the seven chords', and the pleasant shock (the new chord is harmonically unexpected yet in voice-lesding terms logical) which each chord shift creates is part of that English sound, which, as I said, you hear as far back as Tallis. There is another, more metaphysical explanation of the potency of the false relation, and possibly its 'Englishness' which I find quite attractive, but as it's not provable I won't go into it here.

In later pieces he might use a similar technique at the service of a more anguished, chromatic expression - the 6th Symphony is full of this, or we have the doleful phrygian wail of the saxophones in the 9th (E minor, F minor, G# minor, G minor etc. etc. - the whole tune coloured in this way)

This is something we associate with VW a lot, as I said, especially when combined with modality - the phrygian inflection of the 9th symphony is one example, but there are countless others - in fact most of VW mature output is modal rather than tonal. The 5th Symphony which starts in a mixolydian D and whose whole tonal argument springs from the conflict between D major and those C naturals, is famous example of the potency and usefulness of this modal technique, and of course the Tallis Fantasia is another.

False relations, parallelism, modality - these are particular trademarks of VWs that seeped elsewhere into English music, albeit in many various ways, and became national markers

The presence of a so called "typically english" voice decreases in Vaughan-Williams symphonic output over time, as he goes for more standard symphonic fare in the 4th-6th symphonies, and then starts experimenting more with his final three.

Again, I'd see this slightly differently - I'd see no 5 as his most English symphony of all, and although things are beset by chromaticism in 4 and 6, these use essentially the same techniques, so that the music still sounds very English whilst under seige from disruptive musical elements. 6, with its glorious quasi-folksong second subject attacked on all sides by chromaticism, ostinati, rhythmic trickery, orchestral outrages, tritones and the like, is the most striking example of this, and also probably the most complete compendium of VW's arsenal of techniques.

[Dana]

      I think that you and I are talking about different "English" sounds - as drogulus points out, Vaughan-Williams deviated sharply from what most consider the pre-established "english" sound - what might be called a more modern English sound - and veered back towards the astute observations you make. Which, then, could be considered more correctly English today? I think that most people consider the early 20th century composers to be more English than their Renaissance predecessors, simply because their works are more freshly in the public's collective memory - although this changes based on the who you ask.

      I hear what you're saying about the 5th symphony, and to a certain extent 6th, but what about the 4th? And while these parallel relations technically veer outside of conventional tonality, they don't serve the ultimate purpose of parallelism and sequences - to move outside of the key. In each of the examples you cite, the tonal shift is an aberration, rather than an event. Is this consistent with early English writing?

      And incidentally, let me make sure I understand you about false relations - it refers to real parallelism, as opposed to tonal parallelism, yes?

[drogulus]

I'm not sure if you mean this specifically for a certain 'type' of 'English' sound, but I would say something rather different. One of the things which makes VW sound so English - or which he made into an English soun - is the use of false relations (derived in part from Tudor composers such as Tallis himself). In VW false relations are very often expressed in parallel triads, so that it becomes almost the echt-VW fingerprint. You find it everywhere, to the extent that one could list hundreds of examples, but just taking the openings of movements we get parallel chord sequences such as

Sea Symphony, 2nd movement - C minor to E major
5th Symphony, 3rd movement - C major, A major, G minor
Tallis Fantasia - G major, F major, B flat major, A flat major, G flat major

These sequences - and I must emphasize, they are everywhere in VW - use many more than just 'the seven chords', and the pleasant shock (the new chord is harmonically unexpected yet in voice-lesding terms logical) which each chord shift creates is part of that English sound, which, as I said, you hear as far back as Tallis. There is another, more metaphysical explanation of the potency of the false relation, and possibly its 'Englishness' which I find quite attractive, but as it's not provable I won't go into it here.

In later pieces he might use a similar technique at the service of a more anguished, chromatic expression - the 6th Symphony is full of this, or we have the doleful phrygian wail of the saxophones in the 9th (E minor, F minor, G# minor, G minor etc. etc. - the whole tune coloured in this way)

This is something we associate with VW a lot, as I said, especially when combined with modality - the phrygian inflection of the 9th symphony is one example, but there are countless others - in fact most of VW mature output is modal rather than tonal. The 5th Symphony which starts in a mixolydian D and whose whole tonal argument springs from the conflict between D major and those C naturals, is famous example of the potency and usefulness of this modal technique, and of course the Tallis Fantasia is another.

False relations, parallelism, modality - these are particular trademarks of VWs that seeped elsewhere into English music, albeit in many various ways, and became national markers

Again, I'd see this slightly differently - I'd see no 5 as his most English symphony of all, and although things are beset by chromaticism in 4 and 6, these use essentially the same techniques, so that the music still sounds very English whilst under seige from disruptive musical elements. 6, with its glorious quasi-folksong second subject attacked on all sides by chromaticism, ostinati, rhythmic trickery, orchestral outrages, tritones and the like, is the most striking example of this, and also probably the most complete compendium of VW's arsenal of techniques.

    Yes, this is about as good an explanation as I've seen. By comparison Elgar's Englishness is more a matter of coming along first. What the following composers got from him isn't specifically English. That's a trick of perspective, really.

[lukeottevanger]

      I think that you and I are talking about different "English" sounds - as drogulus points out, Vaughan-Williams deviated sharply from what most consider the pre-established "english" sound - what might be called a more modern English sound - and veered back towards the astute observations you make. Which, then, could be considered more correctly English today? I think that most people consider the early 20th century composers to be more English than their Renaissance predecessors, simply because their works are more freshly in the public's collective memory - although this changes based on the who you ask.

      I hear what you're saying about the 5th symphony, and to a certain extent 6th, but what about the 4th? And while these parallel relations technically veer outside of conventional tonality, they don't serve the ultimate purpose of parallelism and sequences - to move outside of the key. In each of the examples you cite, the tonal shift is an aberration, rather than an event. Is this consistent with early English writing?

      And incidentally, let me make sure I understand you about false relations - it refers to real parallelism, as opposed to tonal parallelism, yes?

I'll have to reply properly later, I'm afraid. But I agree with you and drog that we're talking about different types of Englishness. Essentially, I think, there are two English sounds - the Pomp and Circumstance Elgar one, and the cowpat VW one, for want of a better term  . But I don't think the former is inherently English except by association - Elgar's harmony, whilst his own, comes from Schumann, Liszt etc.. But because it is his own it is still distinctive, and because we know Elgar is English it therefore sounds English too. VW's English sound draws on English techniques and earlier English composers, but it probably sounds English to us because he used it so powerfully, not (particularly) because it reminds us of Tallis (though it might be that too). The composers who followed VW - Finzi, Moeran, Howells etc. - for all their individualities and differences use Renaissance techniques filtered through VW, the first major figure to so use them in England. Notably, of the major British composers contemporaneous with VW, neither Elgar nor Delius nor Holst (Medievalisms in his case) had much use for these Renaissance techniques.

Anyway, I'll look in on this later.

[drogulus]

    This is great stuff. The first thing I latched on to with RVW, that made his music sound so different to me was the modalism and parallelism, including the later, more chromatic works. I'd sit in my bedroom playing this on guitar, trying to figure out what this was, and why it sounded so distinctive.

[Christo]

There is another, more metaphysical explanation of the potency of the false relation, and possibly its 'Englishness' which I find quite attractive, but as it's not provable I won't go into it here.

Great lecture on RVW's unique style, I'm deeply impressed. And hoping for a future metaphysical explanation as well ...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I was intrigued by Lukeottevanger's 'unprovable' metaphysical explanation for RVW's use of false relation. I immediately thought of Wilfrid Mellers' book about RVW, 'Vaughan Williams and the Vison of Albion'. And I think I have found what Lukeottevanger is so coyly referring to. And if I haven't, the correct explanation would interest me very much... In a review of Mellers' book, Lewis Foreman (in Tempo, No 171, December 1990) writes:

[lukeottevanger]

Thanks, Jez, I just spent the last few minutes writing out essentially that myself. You've guessed correctly! Though some find Mellers theories bizarre, I've always found them pretty convincing, especially as they chime with my experience of hearing and playing both Tallis and Vaughan Williams.

FWIW, what I wrote was (directed at Christo):

I don't think it would be anything new to you, though, because IIRC you have read Wilfrid Mellers' book on VW which has informed my thoughts on him to a great extent. His explanation of false relations, and above all of their effect, is really impressive to my mind, though maybe metaphysical was the wrong word - I was in a hurry! I hope I don't misrepresent it!

Mellers' thesis in his book on VW is that of 'doubleness' - VW as a Christian agnostic, a rural urbanite, etc. etc. - and that this doubleness, which is also, fundmentally, concerned with notions of 'fallen man' and of 'paradise regained', is something which can be traced through much of his music. A little thought about each of his symphonies and other major works tends to support this...

Mellers describes Renaissance false relations in these sorts of terms - in a certain sense they represent a very real clash between modality and tonality, and therefore between timelessness and measured pulse. This might seem a little bizarre, I suppose, but the argument is quite strong - modal music, generally lacking the pull of leading note, tends to float to a conclusion rather than be pulled to one. Instead of a feeling of A causing B, as in functional tonality, modal music tends to drift to a cadence without asserting that a particular moment is a functional pivot, therefore it sounds, relatively, suspended in time. The power of false relations, then, comes in part from the directed pull of one part against the drift of the other - a kind of split between 'modern' dynamism (Mellers might attach the word 'corporeal' here, as pulse leads to dance etc.) and 'ancient' timelessness (re. folk music, plainsong etc.). As VW himself was split along these lines, Mellers argument runs, so he was drawn to the doubleness of the false relation.

False relations are often described as 'bitter-sweet' - Walton's Viola Concerto is the locus classicus! - and this is usually put down to the class of major and minor they usually entail. But I think Mellers' explanation - that they are a clash of worlds, and that their power stems from their polyphonic nature, one voice against another - is more convincing. Otherwise, the major-minor chord which often finishes a piece of jazz would also sound 'bitter-sweet', and I'd suggest that it doesn't!

VW use of falsely-related chords, of course, doesn't work in this way exactly, though there's examples a plenty of Renaissance-style false-related polyphony in his music too.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Fascinating stuff! I like Mellers. He has an understanding of how the artistic mind works.

I think I have found a way into the Fifth...

[lukeottevanger]

Fascinating stuff! I like Mellers. He has an understanding of how the artistic mind works.

Yes, he really does, I agree. Another example is his views on key associations - a subject I've discussed so many times here that I'm loathe to bring it up again! When the subject of key associations is brought up 'Emperor's new clothes' types like to point out, amongst other things 1) that it has no basis in acoustical fact and 2) that pieces x, y and z don't conform to it, therefore it can't really exist. Neither of these objections means much to me, I must say, as they very much miss the point, which many people miss - key associations mean very important things to composers, and are therefore partly to thank for the music that we love: they are worth thinking about, and much of interest can be revealed in the process. Mellers is the only musicologist I've read who really, passionately understands this and other similar issues, and, even though it makes for an idiosyncratic writing style which rubs some up the wrong way and which sometimes does seem a little odd, I think he gets to the root of things more than any other writer on music that I've read.

I think I have found a way into the Fifth...

Good! Keep us pegged! I think Mellers places the Fifth right at the heart of VW's output - it is the work which most beautifully expresses and heals the 'rift' that Mellers thinks is at the core of VW concerns.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Keep us pegged! I think Mellers places the Fifth right at the heart of VW's output - it is the work which most beautifully expresses and heals the 'rift' that Mellers thinks is at the core of VW concerns.

I'll keep you all posted. I really love RVW's music, and I never understood why I didn't like the Fifth. Perhaps now my ears will be opened...

[Christo]

Fascinating stuff! I like Mellers. He has an understanding of how the artistic mind works.

I think I have found a way into the Fifth...

Would be a good idea indeed. Actually, even I read Mellers' book - as Luke somehow guesses, thoug I don't know how he could know - and it also shaped my view of RVW to a large extent. But it's long time since I heard anything as convincing about RVW's uniqueness as now presented by Luke - I read it with admiration.

[lukeottevanger]

Would be a good idea indeed. Actually, even I read Mellers' book - as Luke somehow guesses, thoug I don't know how he could know

Not quite a guess, more a vague recollection. And when I put 'mellers' into the search engine, your post mentioning him is the only only that comes up (disappointingly, since I've mentioned him elsewhere too!)

- and it also shaped my view of RVW to a large extent. But it's long time since I heard anything as convincing about RVW's uniqueness as now presented by Luke - I read it with admiration.

Very kind of you. Honestly, though, Meller's book was the biggest influence on my view of VW, and I'm probably not saying anything he hasn't already said much better. A very insightful man.

[lukeottevanger]

(Just ran the 'mellers' search again - a few more results this time, and not just in this thread! I'll never understand this search engine!)