"Dumb and Dumber"- Are Americans hostile to knowledge?

[head-case]

In other words, the US military was not confident that they could handle the Japanese army with conventional methods, so they had to use the genocidal ones that had just been made available to them. Which makes sense if you look at the history of US wars and how surprisingly ineffective the US military has always been when (more or less) on their own. Korea, Vietnam, the wat they handled the still nogoing war in Iraq - all cases of "dumb and dumber" in a military sense, too?

There is nothing "genocidal" about an nuclear weapon, it's just an unusually big bomb.  Genocide is an attempt to annihilate an entire racial group.  The Americans were quite generous with the Japanese and other axis powers after the war was over.  Among the developed nations, only the Germans have practiced genocide (that I am aware of).

[M forever]

Attempted genocides, racial, ethnic, religious etc "cleansings" happened (and even still happen today) more often in history than we can count, both among "developed" and "undeveloped" nations. That you don't know that refers us back to the title of the thread.

You have a point though that the atomic bomb can probably not be called a "genocidal" weapon - it even goes a step beyond that. While genocide typically targets the members of a somehow defined group of people, the atomic bomb simply wipes out everybody and everything within range in a matter of seconds, and haunts many of the survivors and even their descendants with unpleasant genetic side effects. As we have seen in Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the bombs didn't just kill Japanese, but also a large number of non-Japanese people, including POWs from several nations and Japanese American citizens. Oops. But then it had already been decided in the US that Americans of Japanese heritage weren't "real Americans" anyway, so they probably didn't mind them evaporating.

Saying that the atomic bomb is "just an unusally big bomb" may be technically correct, but it is actually an attempt at relativizing the fact that in no moment in history were as many people indiscriminately killed by anyone as in these few seconds. That's like saying the holocaust matters less because there were many other genocides, just not as well organized and industrialized. But it all matters. Violence against people always matters, especially, but not exclusively, on that scale.

So I guess it's a lack of confidence now that prompts armies to develop better technologies??

No, but it was certainly the reason for the actual use of these WMDs, and it is also the reason why today, one can often hear Americans say "let's just nuke the entire Middle East".

[Dancing Divertimentian]

No, but it was certainly the reason for the actual use of these WMDs...

So if a military develops new technologies they shouldn't actually use them...because it's a sign they lack confidence. Got it.

and it is also the reason why today, one can often hear Americans say "let's just nuke the entire Middle East".

So because America is so lacking in confidence we go around proclaiming we're going to nuke everyone...with the Middle East as a ground zero. Got it.

(Pure fantasy...)

[Florestan]

Well, the Russians defeated Adolf Hitler, losing 27 million people, and made their way to Berlin, expanding the influence on Eastern Europe and becoming a superpower.

I think you mean the Soviet Union brutally forcing Communism down the throat of reluctant Eastern Europe peoples and becoming a beacon of tyranny.

However, everything is over.

Fortunately!

[Sarastro]

the Soviet Union brutally forcing Communism down the throat of reluctant Eastern Europe peoples and becoming a beacon of tyranny.

Well, you are right. I'm happy that everything is over, too. Can't imagine myself growing up in Soviets with "father Lenin" and "uncle Stalin" posters everywhere. But that is History...

[Florestan]

Well, you are right. I'm happy that everything is over, too. Can't imagine myself growing up in Soviets with "father Lenin" and "uncle Stalin" posters everywhere.

I substituted "Soviet Union" for "Russians" on purpose. I believe Russians as a people have suffered enormously under Communism.

You modified your initial reply, but let me tell you this: the Nazis and the Communists (I'm talking here about party high-rank officials, not simple members) were alike in their disdain for human life.

[Sarastro]

the Nazis and the Communists (I'm talking here about party high-rank officials, not simple members) were alike in their disdain for human life.

That's why I modified it, because my statement didn't make any sense.
Europe had no other choice - only to help Stalin defeat Hitler...or to stay under the Nazis.

[Florestan]

That's why I modified it, because my statement didn't make any sense.
Europe had no other choice - only to help Stalin defeat Hitler...or to stay under the Nazis.

There's a Romanian proverb which reads: You escape the devil and encounter his father. 

[paulb]

so they had to use the genocidal ones

Genocide is when the people don't ask for it. The japanese asked. Just as the muslims are begging to get clobbered. One day someone will do it. And it will not be the USA.

[carlos]

IMHO, Truman didn't used the atomic to save american lives. At that time, Japan was finished, didn't had more aeroplanes nor AA.
Two more weeks of saturation bombardments and Tokyo would be burned completely. Truman used the bomb to show Stalin and the rest of his "allyes" that he had the ultimate weapon, and was ready to use it against who and where he choose. Death of Innocent civilians was only an acceptable collateral.

[Cato]

There's a Romanian proverb which reads: You escape the devil and encounter his father. 

Folk wisdom of the ages!   0:)

How true in the case of Hitler/Stalin!

Carlos: which historians have found evidence for your claim that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actually an atomic message to Stalin?

[karlhenning]

There's a Romanian proverb which reads: You escape the devil and encounter his father. 

Interesting! In US Southron, the proverb is, The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

[lukeottevanger]

The same in Britain, give or take the odd verbal flippage (Better the devil you know....). But what I want to know is, how do you know....? 

[karlhenning]

Leave it to Luke to blow the lid off demonic epistemology 

[head-case]

You have a point though that the atomic bomb can probably not be called a "genocidal" weapon - it even goes a step beyond that. While genocide typically targets the members of a somehow defined group of people, the atomic bomb simply wipes out everybody and everything within range in a matter of seconds, and haunts many of the survivors and even their descendants with unpleasant genetic side effects. As we have seen in Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the bombs didn't just kill Japanese, but also a large number of non-Japanese people, including POWs from several nations and Japanese American citizens. Oops. But then it had already been decided in the US that Americans of Japanese heritage weren't "real Americans" anyway, so they probably didn't mind them evaporating.

The nuclear weapon has enormous destructive power, but its effect isn't different than the cumulative effect of an attack with many conventional weapons.   Genocide is when, over the course of ten years, you make lists of every supposedly sub-human creature you need to kill and then you go down that list, collecting them in concentration camps and killing them until there are none left (unless someone stops you first).

[Lethevich]

The nuclear weapon has enormous destructive power, but its effect isn't different than the cumulative effect of an attack with many conventional weapons.   Genocide is when, over the course of ten years, you make lists of every supposedly sub-human creature you need to kill and then you go down that list, collecting them in concentration camps and killing them until there are none left (unless someone stops you first).

Not to mention that the "unpleasant side effects" weren't exactly intentional either - that is applying knowledge we have now to a time which did not have it.

[orbital]

Genocide is when the people don't ask for it. The japanese asked. Just as the muslims are begging to get clobbered. One day someone will do it. And it will not be the USA.

Paul, I don't know how many Muslims you have come to know in your life time, but believe me, for I was born and raised in a predominantly Muslim country, when I say your crusade against a couple of billion people on the grounds of a few thousand militant extremists is not only ignorance, but blind ignorance which is one of the worst qualities a human can have. I know that you will agree with me on this because you see the same blind ignorance in those Islamic militant extremists, and they are still at a better place morally AFAIC, because they are only pawns with very limited resources on which to enlarge their world view. On the other hand, you are free to learn about those people that you think deserve to be nuked, but you choose to hate them instead.

I stand against a lot of things in Islam (if not everything the religion stands for actually), without even going into the violence related aspect of things. I think that the religion needs a major reform which is essentially what is lacking to make those people come to terms with the reality of the times we live in. But what is being forgotten is that Islam came into existence 7 centuries later than Christianity. What you have to do is think of Christianity in the 1300s and you will have a somewhat better idea about where Islam currently stands. It is not a new religion by any means, but don't forget that Muslim people have been closed to outside influences almost all through their history.

I  am actually optimistic that with the advent of the information age this will eventually change. You see some rage in some Muslim people because they have lived according to what their religion and their leaders told them and they see an outside world now where there are people from different faiths (or no faith at all) who have better and easier access to resources. They are immediately instructed (and ready) to accept the role of the victim, those people who have done whatever their God told them to, but they have been stripped of their rewards because infidels have taken control of wealth. SO they feel betrayed in a way. But people are people wherever you go. You can oppress them as much as you want and you may have Ahmadinejad tell you that there are no gays in Iran, but then you have this: http://www.google.com/trends?q=sex

[karlhenning]

orbital, you have very gently and reasonably answered one of Paul's more dunderheaded and uncharitable remarks. My hat's off to you.

[bhodges]

orbital, you have very gently and reasonably answered one of Paul's more dunderheaded and uncharitable remarks. My hat's off to you.

Yep, ditto here.  I'll add, "...and with grace, too."

--Bruce

[Florestan]

Has anyone notice that "Paul" rhyme with "Saul"?